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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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 Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| SGKent wrote: |
Colin is in Eureka CA and was in Portland a couple days ago. I doubt if you can convince him to come back to Oregon unless you are not far from Eureka CA but it might be your best bet to try considering this sounds like your first rodeo with a bus. NY is a long way away. He'll charge you what it would cost to take it to a shop but he knows older buses - in fact he is driving his 1970 on this trip, but what he would charge you is less than a 3000 mile tow. Good luck.
Colin - https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/memberlist.php |
This ain't my first rodeo with a bus. My first rodeo with a bus was around 1975. 
All we need here is to find out WTF is causing the slop issue, and I've learned that 95% of the WTF problems I've never seen before on a VW are due to replacement parts, and the other 5% are due to shit breaking that never used to due to the age of these cars now.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
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neena
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2010
Posts: 581
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
the nut not pinching everything together is an issue. it could be the nut "snout" on the drum is incorrect, or the inner "snout" isn't deep enough.
basically, like the pipe idea the drum is nothing more than a spacer to pinch the bearing stack together...you just need to find where the deficit is...either the drum of the aftermarket spacer. sadly, you can't snake the big girl spacer out without removing the bearing.....and getting all covered in poop again |
C'mon Tram, you heard the man...Time to get covered in poop again. We need to get the heck outta OR! |
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Wildthings
Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50348
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| This will not solve all your problems but get hold of some Vanagon nuts and then use the Vanagon torque spec. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| neena wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
the nut not pinching everything together is an issue. it could be the nut "snout" on the drum is incorrect, or the inner "snout" isn't deep enough.
basically, like the pipe idea the drum is nothing more than a spacer to pinch the bearing stack together...you just need to find where the deficit is...either the drum of the aftermarket spacer. sadly, you can't snake the big girl spacer out without removing the bearing.....and getting all covered in poop again |
C'mon Tram, you heard the man...Time to get covered in poop again. We need to get the heck outta OR! |
That ain't poop... that's tar, baby!!! 
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| This will not solve all your problems but get hold of some Vanagon nuts and then use the Vanagon torque spec. |
Yep, genuine 1 piece Vanagon nuts are comin...
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| As suggested switch the drums from side to side. If the problem moves. Shim out Hub/Drum. Install Alternator/Generator pulley shims 111 903 131 A, between the Hub/Drum and the Wheel bearing or Spacer ring. Shims are 0.5mm thick. Adjust accordingly. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Sun Aug 06, 2017 10:27 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| Tcash wrote: |
| As suggested switch the drums from side to side. If the problem moves. Shim out Hub/Drum. Install Alternator/Generator pulley shims 111 903 131 A, between the Hub/Drum and the Wheel bearing or Spacer ring. Shims are 0.5mm thick. Adjust accordingly. |
Interesting. I often wondered if generator shims were viable here but figured not because of the torque pressure. This is actually safe? No, I'm not being sarcastic here- I'm just concerned that I am sending a Bus with two nice people in it from Oregon to NYC with a repair I've never heard of in my 42 years in the VW Gulag.
But humor me just for a minute here. Don't forget that one of my issues on the "bad" side is that the nut only snugs on far enough for me to use a thinner cotter key, e.g., the nut doesn't seem to go on the "bad" side as far as it does on the "good" side.
Wouldn't adding shims under the drum make this issue even worse?
Unless I'm just not thinking clearly, the nut not going on as far would tell me that the spacers are already *somehow magically* too long, correct?
I just want you to be clear about the exact problem.
Possibly the shim(s) will take out the play and the Vanagon nut will allow the correct cotter key to be used, I don't know.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16878
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:45 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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I think generator shims will smash flat in short order, but may be a good way to make a shimstack you can measure and have a real 1 piece shim made...
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| Tram wrote: |
| Tcash wrote: |
| As suggested switch the drums from side to side. If the problem moves. Shim out Hub/Drum. Install Alternator/Generator pulley shims 111 903 131 A, between the Hub/Drum and the Wheel bearing or Spacer ring. Shims are 0.5mm thick. Adjust accordingly. |
Interesting. I often wondered if generator shims were viable here but figured not because of the torque pressure. This is actually safe? No, I'm not being sarcastic here- I'm just concerned that I am sending a Bus with two nice people in it from Oregon to NYC with a repair I've never heard of in my 42 years in the VW Gulag.
But humor me just for a minute here. Don't forget that one of my issues on the "bad" side is that the nut only snugs on far enough for me to use a thinner cotter key, e.g., the nut doesn't seem to go on the "bad" side as far as it does on the "good" side.
Wouldn't adding shims under the drum make this issue even worse?
Unless I'm just not thinking clearly, the nut not going on as far would tell me that the spacers are already *somehow magically* too long, correct?
I just want you to be clear about the exact problem.
Possibly the shim(s) will take out the play and the Vanagon nut will allow the correct cotter key to be used, I don't know. |
Was the stub axle a new aftermarket piece or a used one from a different year bus? Do you still have the old stub axle? If not, you may need to remove the other side to see if there was a difference in the collar length & diameter between the old & new.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Clatter
Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 7544
Location: Santa Cruz
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:25 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Scratching head and trying to picture what we are all talking about here.. 
Something I was taught years ago,
Was that the inner spacer, (the cylinder-shaped spacer that presses against the inner races,
Rides on the OD of the stub), was specific to any given trailing arm.
There was supposedly enough manufacturing tolerance in the arms that the spacers had to be fitted.
You will see different paint markings on them,
And they will have different length measurements..
Perhaps you have tolerances stacking up with parts from different vehicles?
I would also be measuring everything six ways from Sunday..
How deep is the splined area? a.k.a. how long are the splines?
Something has an OD too big, and is hanging against something it's not supposed to?
Have to start looking at these things like a machinist now instead of a mechanic, unfortunately.
Find out where the flunky messed up in making his parts that day...
Maybe just best to wait until Colin makes it there..!
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Bus Motor Build
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:34 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| Tcash wrote: |
| As suggested switch the drums from side to side. If the problem moves. Shim out Hub/Drum. Install Alternator/Generator pulley shims 111 903 131 A, between the Hub/Drum and the Wheel bearing or Spacer ring. Shims are 0.5mm thick. Adjust accordingly. |
Interesting. I often wondered if generator shims were viable here but figured not because of the torque pressure. This is actually safe? No, I'm not being sarcastic here- I'm just concerned that I am sending a Bus with two nice people in it from Oregon to NYC with a repair I've never heard of in my 42 years in the VW Gulag.
But humor me just for a minute here. Don't forget that one of my issues on the "bad" side is that the nut only snugs on far enough for me to use a thinner cotter key, e.g., the nut doesn't seem to go on the "bad" side as far as it does on the "good" side.
Wouldn't adding shims under the drum make this issue even worse?
Unless I'm just not thinking clearly, the nut not going on as far would tell me that the spacers are already *somehow magically* too long, correct?
I just want you to be clear about the exact problem.
Possibly the shim(s) will take out the play and the Vanagon nut will allow the correct cotter key to be used, I don't know. |
Was the stub axle a new aftermarket piece or a used one from a different year bus? Do you still have the old stub axle? If not, you may need to remove the other side to see if there was a difference in the collar length & diameter between the old & new. |
It's a used stub. I still have the old one and am planning on comparing all surfaces with a caliper. I already pulled it back out to do a visual comparison new v old but just on general length and they are identical.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| Clatter wrote: |
Scratching head and trying to picture what we are all talking about here..
Something I was taught years ago,
Was that the inner spacer, (the cylinder-shaped spacer that presses against the inner races,
Rides on the OD of the stub), was specific to any given trailing arm.
There was supposedly enough manufacturing tolerance in the arms that the spacers had to be fitted.
You will see different paint markings on them,
And they will have different length measurements..
Perhaps you have tolerances stacking up with parts from different vehicles?
I would also be measuring everything six ways from Sunday..
How deep is the splined area? a.k.a. how long are the splines?
Something has an OD too big, and is hanging against something it's not supposed to?
Have to start looking at these things like a machinist now instead of a mechanic, unfortunately.
Find out where the flunky messed up in making his parts that day...
Maybe just best to wait until Colin makes it there..! |
As it winds up, the spacers actually ARE original and were not replaced, and they are in top condition. I got cornfused because I had the Disciple (aka the Go- Rilla) put the back end together while I was working on other things. Since all I need to do to get to work is walk out my back door to the shop, I usually have him pick up parts on his way in, and in talking to my parts guy those spacers "haven't been available for 20 years" so the originals are still there. All the bearings, seals, and drum are new, though.
So... my first suspect is the stub. However, I am basing this solely on the fact that after I replaced the stub the cotter key that came out would no longer go in- that's when I needed the next thinner one.
I'm going to do a bunch of measuring from the new used stub to the old one and see if I can find anything. Hang tight.
BTW, Mr. C. ... those seat releases you were whining about over yonder have been done for quite awhile. When I get done with this tar baby I need you to PM me an address though, so I can dig them out and send them. I ain't the Amazing Kreskin, yaknow.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12854
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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If it all measures correctly, the only thing I can think of is severely loose tolerances in the bearings, with the stub out, check side play in the bearings. if the balls used were smaller than the races needed then this would cause excessive side to side & lateral play, which kinda sounds like what you're dealing with.
Were the outer races loose in the housing, or the stub loose in the inner?
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Tram - I did not know you were in Oregon working on this bus. Had I realized it was you doing the work, the appropriate response would have been to send you original German parts.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:03 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
If it all measures correctly, the only thing I can think of is severely loose tolerances in the bearings, with the stub out, check side play in the bearings. if the balls used were smaller than the races needed then this would cause excessive side to side & lateral play, which kinda sounds like what you're dealing with.
Were the outer races loose in the housing, or the stub loose in the inner? |
Nein und nein.
Some people, including my longtime trustworthy parts guy, tell me that these bearings should have "float". Not only does this go against my experience, the "good" side is tight with zero play as I remember it should be. I also peeked at Amskeptic's site, and he said that play= bad bearings which is how I remember it too. All the British forum Bay guys say end play is "normal" but all they seem to be concerned with is passing MOT, not actual 3000 mile treks in 90 degree- plus heat. 
Besides, this ain't "float". It's more like full steam ahead.
I'm going to go beat the vacuum where my brain used to be against it some more then I'll report back, with pics and video if necessary.
Is there a snowball's chance that when I drove the new used stub in that I somehow moved or cocked the outer bearing just a hair?
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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D/A/N
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:04 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| Clatter wrote: |
| Maybe just best to wait until Colin makes it there..! |
Colin is coming? I don't even know how to contact him. Did someone else? If he's on his way and has a solution, I'm game. We were supposed to leave OR 3 weeks ago. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:06 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Tram - I did not know you were in Oregon working on this bus. Had I realized it was you doing the work, the appropriate response would have been to send you original German parts. |
No worries. Actually, Colin is a good egg and in these cases multiple heads are always better than one. I actually built the bus for D/A/N and neena. It was a typical Oregon field terrarium with a solid body but everything else rat- boinked. I mean everything else!
I did browse the issue on Colin's site actually, and his take is that play should not be there and if it is you have bad bearings, which tallies with what I remember- so we're on the same page there.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22727
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| Clatter wrote: |
| Maybe just best to wait until Colin makes it there..! |
Colin is coming? I don't even know how to contact him. Did someone else? If he's on his way and has a solution, I'm game. We were supposed to leave OR 3 weeks ago. |
News to me. If he is, I'll let him deal with it and we'll join you guys at the coast... and bring booze.
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Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:18 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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was the replacement stub new or used? Is it possible someone substituted a 1971 - 1979 stub?
8/67 - 7/70 211 501 265
8/70 > 211 501 265C
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D/A/N
Samba Member
Joined: August 13, 2010
Posts: 2227
Location: 11222
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| SGKent wrote: |
was the replacement stub new or used? Is it possible someone substituted a 1971 - 1979 stub?
8/67 - 7/70 211 501 265
8/70 > 211 501 265C |
The replacement stub is used and the same length as the original. Is there another difference between the early and later ones? |
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