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sodbuster Samba Member
Joined: August 08, 2004 Posts: 1086 Location: wherever my baywindow takes me.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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I'd like to point out here that the generator shim under the brake drum trick will not work in this case. As the size of the bus stub axle is much larger than the I.D. of the generator shim.
This trick is best for bug, type 3 and pre 64 bus applications with axles that take the 36mm axle nuts.
sounds to me like the spacer between the bearings is too short. (But you already know that.) You also may be "bottoming out" the threads of the stub axle while tightening things up. that may be the reason you are breaking the nuts.
my 2 cents |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:54 am Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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D/A/N wrote: |
SGKent wrote: |
was the replacement stub new or used? Is it possible someone substituted a 1971 - 1979 stub?
8/67 - 7/70 211 501 265
8/70 > 211 501 265C |
The replacement stub is used and the same length as the original. Is there another difference between the early and later ones? |
I do not know the difference dimensionally between the two. One would need to measure every dimension to see if they were the same. The later ones are designed for a flange instead of a drum. Maybe someone else here may have one of each they can compare. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12857 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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They are definitely different, you can see in this ad...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=2063982
You can see the difference in the length of the splines in the center two, the drum may be bottoming out on the splines & not the bearings. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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That's the exact ad I used as a reference when I realized I needed a stub. So, if the "long" and "short" refers to the length of the spline rather than the length of the axle as that ad intimates... you may have just won the prize.
I'm having a quick lunch, then after that we shall see.
If I can get that lucky, that explains all the issues, and frankly, I always did suspect the damn replacement stub... just because I needed that damn thinner cotter key to make it work. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Of course it could not possibly be that easy or straightforward.
Every dimension measures out exactly the same from the new stub to the old. Used brake drum installed... same shit.
Which brings me back to the outer bearing having gotten moved out just a hair or cocked when I drove the replacement stub in. Going there next.
Triple damn it. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:32 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Does anyone here have an early stub axle to see if the splines are the same? Could the PO have swapped axles or housing and that caused the problems needing repair now.
Last option would be to pull the stub axle from the other side and see if it fits when swapped, and vice versa if not. Usually the stub will slide out without having to disassemble the bearings. That said the hub carrier is also different on early and late bay according to what others have written. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin
Last edited by SGKent on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:36 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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lil-jinx Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2013 Posts: 1109 Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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The torque on the axle nut goes down the center of the shaft thru the spacers and the inner races and should not affect end play unless it is sloppy loose,the high torque on the nut is to prevent the drum/hub from moving on the shaft.End play is controled by the press fit of the inside bearing and it's fit between the snap-ring and the shoulder in the housing,if that bearing is sliding around in it's bore you will have end play.there will be a tiny amount of play in the bearing,if there was no play the bearing would seize.
Sound like you have 2 problems,the nut not going down pass the hole could be just a nut that is too thick,a shaft that is too short,or a spacer that is too long.
As for nut cracking while tightening,that's a new one for me. _________________ https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy
1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes. |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12857 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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I'm surprised that you had to drive the stub axle in, mine slide rather easily in & out of the bearings. The bearing may have been cocked in the housing to begin with. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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SGKent wrote: |
Tram - could the old stub be the wrong one, and have caused the failure on that side? Are we assuming it is the original from VW, and that it has never been replaced, or do we know it is the original? If someone replaced it with the wrong one we may be matching wrong with wrong. |
Here's what I know:
1. The original stub came on the bus. With the original stub, the nut was on far enough to correctly install a fat cotter key in that filled the hole.
2. With the replacement stub, the end of the nut sits flush with the end of the stub instead of the end of the stub being ever so slightly proud of the nut, and the castle part covers about one thread of the cotter key hole such that I needed to use a thinner cotter key as the one that was there with the old stub now won't fit.
3. Both the old and new stubs are exactly identical on all dimensions- length of threads, position of cotter key holes, length of splines, length of the "land" between the splines and what I call the built- in inner spacer, and the length of the inner spacer, as well as overall length.
That said,
a. I wasn't checking for end play when all this started. I merely wanted to remove the new drum on that side to see if it had the same casting issue as the drum on the other side, and the first new replacement drum I got for the other side.
b. The replacement stub was an absolute bitch to install. Of course I was laying on the ground under the Bus to do it but it was tough. I had to tighten the nut then smack it from behind with a big drift punch and a sledge, tighten the nut some more, whack it again, lather, rinse, repeat.
"So why is he replacing the stub?" you ask. Well, the damn nut would NOT come loose from that side with the big air gun, so I grabbed a big flat chisel and a BFH to help it get started. Second whack and the nut just blew apart.
What I found was that the Go-Rilla had just muscled a nut over really badly bunged up threads in the stub due to the original nut being so tight even a torque meister didn't work so I had to air chisel it off.
I have a thread file and I *thought* that the threads had been filed back OK but I guess not.
I figured the bunged stub threads were the reason the nut stuck and then blew apart, but since then I've learned that the replacement nuts are just porous junk and are downright dangerous. I can't believe that these pieces of shit aren't breaking on the road with normal sideways flex from driving. The OE nuts fought my ass with the air chisel down to the last mm of metal before they'd split. I must have spent damn close to an hour to get them off.
Anyway, figuring that the stub threads were the reason for all the shit and the cracked nut, I hunted down a new used stub. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile
Last edited by Tram on Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:57 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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look at this ad. I see a difference in length and a difference in cotter pin hole size but I am an old man with vision that is headed downhill.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/detail.php?id=1656653 _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
I'm surprised that you had to drive the stub axle in, mine slide rather easily in & out of the bearings. The bearing may have been cocked in the housing to begin with. |
The old original one came out way easier. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:04 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Nope- your vision is fine. The difference is pretty blatant.
I'm off to play with a tar baby. I agree with TDCTDI that the damn new stub shouldn't have been quite that much of a cock to put in so I am going to go hunting for bearing damage.
I don't care if I fucked it up, I don't care if it's me being a dumbass, I don't care about anything but getting it fixed at this point. If it winds up being "Tram is an ass" as you all used to say in the Rants, I'm totally OK with it as long as it goes way. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:37 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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see what the part number is on the carrier
The fiche shows
211-501-253 and 211-501-254 for 8/67 - 7/70
then
it shows after 8/70 the numbers 211-501-253/B and 211-501-254/B, then it shows 211-501-253/E and 211-501-254/E also for after 8/70 but the part is labeled "reinforced."
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12857 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:58 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Tram wrote: |
Nope- your vision is fine. The difference is pretty blatant.
I'm off to play with a tar baby. I agree with TDCTDI that the damn new stub shouldn't have been quite that much of a cock to put in so I am going to go hunting for bearing damage.
I don't care if I fucked it up, I don't care if it's me being a dumbass, I don't care about anything but getting it fixed at this point. If it winds up being "Tram is an ass" as you all used to say in the Rants, I'm totally OK with it as long as it goes way. |
I'm not passing judgment, just trying to help by throwing out ideas. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:14 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
Tram wrote: |
Nope- your vision is fine. The difference is pretty blatant.
I'm off to play with a tar baby. I agree with TDCTDI that the damn new stub shouldn't have been quite that much of a cock to put in so I am going to go hunting for bearing damage.
I don't care if I fucked it up, I don't care if it's me being a dumbass, I don't care about anything but getting it fixed at this point. If it winds up being "Tram is an ass" as you all used to say in the Rants, I'm totally OK with it as long as it goes way. |
I'm not passing judgment, just trying to help by throwing out ideas. |
My comment had nothing to do with anyone passing judgement and everything to do with how I feel about it at this point.
Keep the ideas coming. My parts guy just left (who also ran a VW repair shop from 1983-2010 in addition to the parts biz) and he just left with his eyes like saucers and shaking his head. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50352
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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One of those has 11 threads between the bottom of the hole and the splines and the other has 9. Have no idea exactly what Tram is dealing with but maybe it is possible for the nut to tighten against the end of the splines? |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 4:59 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Wildthings wrote: |
One of those has 11 threads between the bottom of the hole and the splines and the other has 9. Have no idea exactly what Tram is dealing with but maybe it is possible for the nut to tighten against the end of the splines? |
If I drop the drum onto the stub axle sitting on the bench it drops on far enough that I can wind the nut on BY HAND to several turns beyond where I need it to be to get the full cotter key hole, so unfortunately that ain't it.
I have the whole damn thing apart and bearings are SKF Germany on the outside and FAG Korea on the inside. No obvious issues, no burrs, no damage to the inside of the housing, no blue areas where anything's been running out of kilter, no nothing.
I'm taking an A/C- icewater break then I'll go check the number on the housing.
This is just fucking stupid.
Next I'll assemble the bearings and spacers to the stub, install the drum, and see if I can see the issue THEN with it all out of the housing.
Whatthefuck. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 5:03 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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early and late cotter pins are the same 5x55 |
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TDCTDI Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013 Posts: 12857 Location: North Carolina
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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With the bearings installed, is the spacer sleeve somewhat snug between the bearings or is there excessive slop?
Just so you can see what's going on, remove the brake shoes & install the drum on backwards to see if it's snagging on something on the splines. _________________ Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Tram Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003 Posts: 22728 Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:17 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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TDCTDI wrote: |
With the bearings installed, is the spacer sleeve somewhat snug between the bearings or is there excessive slop?
Just so you can see what's going on, remove the brake shoes & install the drum on backwards to see if it's snagging on something on the splines. |
The spacer sleeve wants to drop as soon as I remove the stub axle. _________________ Немає виправдання для війни! Я з Україною.
Bryan67 wrote: |
Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
To best contact me, please use the EMAIL function in my profile |
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