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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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 Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:29 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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If you stick your fingers into the spacer & push/pull it within the bearings, does it seem to have excessive slop or just some that might be taken up by the compression of the axle nut?
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:35 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Will he go round in circles?
Will he fly high like a bird up in the sky?
YES, HE CAN.
OK, so here's more info.
1. Housing number 211 501 25 and last digit illegible because it looks like the factory finish- machined it off. Suffix? No clue. 
Pictures of stuff to follow IF i don't get the usual "your file is too big or corrupted" error message. That's why I started using Photobucket, but now... yeah, that.
Again, all measurements from the original stub axle to the replacement match.
2. I removed and cleaned everything on the offending side- everything looks excellent with no obvious issues.
3. I assembled the bearings, spacers, and drum to the stub axle on the bench. Everything seats and cinches down as it should. No play. However, I'm still not getting a full cotter key hole as before.
4. Just because, I decided to try the best of the used original drums on the assembly and VOILA! Full cotter key hole! 
OK, but the new drum fit the original stub axle with the correct cotter key just fine. HOWEVER, that was when I had an aftermarket replacement castle nut on there- the first one that was gorilla tight and blew apart when I tried to start moving it with a chisel.
Am I going round in circles yet? Pretty sure the answer is "yes". 
So, OK. I'm going to go put this bastard all back together and see what's what. But what does the loose inner sleeve tell us? It's a VW stamped part with no signs of any wear and no mushrooming.
Let me see if I can get my pics to load.
Again... How can something so simple be this fucking complicated??? 
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:39 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| If you stick your fingers into the spacer & push/pull it within the bearings, does it seem to have excessive slop or just some that might be taken up by the compression of the axle nut? |
I'll report back on that once I get the little fucker back together.  It really didn't seem excessive, it just seemed like it wanted to succumb to gravity with the stub out is all.
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 6:58 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Wow, the pics loaded fine. They all loaded out of order, though. I was going to not be rude and link them all here but I guess I'll have to.
First- the stub axles, old and new:
Old
New
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:01 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Bearings and spacers:
Housing, both sides
Bearings and spacers installed to new stub with drum:
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:03 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Cotter key hole with new drum:
With used OE drum:
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:17 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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Then the drum depth is too tall but that shouldn't cause any movement in the bearings or a binding with the stub in the bearings.
Check the drum for runout, check that the inner sleeve is the same length as the space in the hub between the bearings.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12850
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:29 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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In the one pic, the outer race is off the bearing & the bearings are cylindrical,
which of those bearings determines the "thrust" or centering of the stub?
If neither are controlling the centering then the only thing keeping the assembly in place is the drum on one side & the stub flange on the other, not a preferred method.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16863
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:38 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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if the bearing stack is pinched correctly that's all you can do. the aftermarket drum is clearly too long on the nut side.
with everything tight, there should be no in/out movement. again, there will be some if you grab the wheel at 6 and 12 or 3 and 9....that play is 'normal' and is due to the design of the outer bearing.
this is one of those things I would have to see in person to advise.
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:47 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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It does seem just from the photos that the "snout" of the new drum is longer than the old drum, but you could measure it to verify.
I guess grinding that down (?) might help with your cotter pin engagement issue but it wouldn't seem to address the underlying play issue.
Those WW German drums are lookin' pretty good about now...
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D/A/N
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Joined: August 13, 2010
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 7:58 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
It does seem just from the photos that the "snout" of the new drum is longer than the old drum, but you could measure it to verify.
I guess grinding that down (?) might help with your cotter pin engagement issue but it wouldn't seem to address the underlying play issue.
Those WW German drums are lookin' pretty good about now... |
Sean! How goes it??? You can tell how it goes for us as we'll be entering week 4 of bus work when we get back to Springfield tomorrow. Those WW drums look great but when you want them overnighted so you can get out of OR and back on the road, they run a cruel $550! Then, the inner spacers would have to be sent from Bus Depot in PA for over $100 and........
In any case, the in/out play was present with both the OG drum (with proper cotter pin engagement) and the aftermarket one with this "new" stub axle. It was an initial hope of ours that simply changing the drum for better nut/pin engagement would help the issue but it didn't.
Tram is a man of many things, but he's not a man with a cell phone so he can't take video. We're due back in his area tomorrow and can take and post a video if need be.
Also.....I sat on the rear bench just over the wheel in question on a test drive and there was an audible and "feelable" clunk in the wheel when going over bumps. Though I guess that could be a loose shock or whatever else.
Ugh...... |
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sjbartnik
Samba Member
Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5994
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:11 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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I guess you're just gonna have to establish residence in Oregon!
Good thing you have a Bus to live in hashtag vanlife
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lil-jinx
Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2013
Posts: 1109
Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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The in and out movement is controlled by the press fit of the inside bearing in its bore,if it is not tight enough it will move in and out,between the snap ring and the shoulder in the bore.
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A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes. |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| sjbartnik wrote: |
It does seem just from the photos that the "snout" of the new drum is longer than the old drum, but you could measure it to verify.
I guess grinding that down (?) might help with your cotter pin engagement issue but it wouldn't seem to address the underlying play issue.
Those WW German drums are lookin' pretty good about now... |
Hey, you!  It's starting to look like the Type 3 Invasion in this soda stand.
Yeah, the drum snout is longer, but it gets even better... it's LONGER on the outside, SHORTER on the inside...
Yeah, no shit!
So there's our SCRAPE SCRAPE so damn loud that it got that brake hot, and I'll bet dollars to dognuts that when the metal wears away or Tram whacks on the backing plate to align it and make the scraping stop, our play appears.
Just a theory. Now that I've had all of it apart to see how far the little step for the rear bearing sticks out of the front side of the rear bearing when the stub is fully seated in it, I'm letting the stub sit for a half hour in the shop fridge freezer and I'll hit the bearing with the heat gun just enough to get it warm so I should be able to get the stub in the bearing without wailing on it, and visually verify that it's seated all the way in the bearing.
Inside bearing, circlip and seal are in the housing awaiting the cold axle.
This had BETTER fucking work.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| lil-jinx wrote: |
| The in and out movement is controlled by the press fit of the inside bearing in its bore,if it is not tight enough it will move in and out,between the snap ring and the shoulder in the bore. |
I'm having to drive them in with an appropriate size large socket, so I think we are OK there. We'll find out.
EDIT: I'd think one could somehow shim there if necessary, no?
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
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Last edited by Tram on Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:24 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Tram
Samba Socialist
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Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| D/A/N wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
It does seem just from the photos that the "snout" of the new drum is longer than the old drum, but you could measure it to verify.
I guess grinding that down (?) might help with your cotter pin engagement issue but it wouldn't seem to address the underlying play issue.
Those WW German drums are lookin' pretty good about now... |
Sean! How goes it??? You can tell how it goes for us as we'll be entering week 4 of bus work when we get back to Springfield tomorrow. Those WW drums look great but when you want them overnighted so you can get out of OR and back on the road, they run a cruel $550! Then, the inner spacers would have to be sent from Bus Depot in PA for over $100 and........
In any case, the in/out play was present with both the OG drum (with proper cotter pin engagement) and the aftermarket one with this "new" stub axle. It was an initial hope of ours that simply changing the drum for better nut/pin engagement would help the issue but it didn't.
Tram is a man of many things, but he's not a man with a cell phone so he can't take video. We're due back in his area tomorrow and can take and post a video if need be.
Also.....I sat on the rear bench just over the wheel in question on a test drive and there was an audible and "feelable" clunk in the wheel when going over bumps. Though I guess that could be a loose shock or whatever else.
Ugh...... |
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
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neena
Samba Member
Joined: September 10, 2010
Posts: 581
Location: Brooklyn, NY
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| Tram wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
It does seem just from the photos that the "snout" of the new drum is longer than the old drum, but you could measure it to verify.
I guess grinding that down (?) might help with your cotter pin engagement issue but it wouldn't seem to address the underlying play issue.
Those WW German drums are lookin' pretty good about now... |
Sean! How goes it??? You can tell how it goes for us as we'll be entering week 4 of bus work when we get back to Springfield tomorrow. Those WW drums look great but when you want them overnighted so you can get out of OR and back on the road, they run a cruel $550! Then, the inner spacers would have to be sent from Bus Depot in PA for over $100 and........
In any case, the in/out play was present with both the OG drum (with proper cotter pin engagement) and the aftermarket one with this "new" stub axle. It was an initial hope of ours that simply changing the drum for better nut/pin engagement would help the issue but it didn't.
Tram is a man of many things, but he's not a man with a cell phone so he can't take video. We're due back in his area tomorrow and can take and post a video if need be.
Also.....I sat on the rear bench just over the wheel in question on a test drive and there was an audible and "feelable" clunk in the wheel when going over bumps. Though I guess that could be a loose shock or whatever else.
Ugh...... |
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You're the one who said to come back on Tuesday!
The coast is nice, but unless we travel hours up or down, we're still limited in the amount of fun we can have or the amount of seafood we can stomach...
We'd rather take videos of the axle and the play!
Now stop replying so quickly and get out there and fix this shit so we can get on the road for real! |
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lil-jinx
Samba Member
Joined: August 14, 2013
Posts: 1109
Location: New Brunswick,Canada
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Tram
Samba Socialist
Joined: May 02, 2003
Posts: 22711
Location: Still Feelin' the Bern- Once you've felt it you can't un- feel it.
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:33 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| neena wrote: |
| Tram wrote: |
| D/A/N wrote: |
| sjbartnik wrote: |
It does seem just from the photos that the "snout" of the new drum is longer than the old drum, but you could measure it to verify.
I guess grinding that down (?) might help with your cotter pin engagement issue but it wouldn't seem to address the underlying play issue.
Those WW German drums are lookin' pretty good about now... |
Sean! How goes it??? You can tell how it goes for us as we'll be entering week 4 of bus work when we get back to Springfield tomorrow. Those WW drums look great but when you want them overnighted so you can get out of OR and back on the road, they run a cruel $550! Then, the inner spacers would have to be sent from Bus Depot in PA for over $100 and........
In any case, the in/out play was present with both the OG drum (with proper cotter pin engagement) and the aftermarket one with this "new" stub axle. It was an initial hope of ours that simply changing the drum for better nut/pin engagement would help the issue but it didn't.
Tram is a man of many things, but he's not a man with a cell phone so he can't take video. We're due back in his area tomorrow and can take and post a video if need be.
Also.....I sat on the rear bench just over the wheel in question on a test drive and there was an audible and "feelable" clunk in the wheel when going over bumps. Though I guess that could be a loose shock or whatever else.
Ugh...... |
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You're the one who said to come back on Tuesday!
The coast is nice, but unless we travel hours up or down, we're still limited in the amount of fun we can have or the amount of seafood we can stomach...
We'd rather take videos of the axle and the play!
Now stop replying so quickly and get out there and fix this shit so we can get on the road for real! |
You're the one who said to come back on Tuesday!
Spock says: "Adjust sarcasm meter, captain".
Now stop replying so quickly and get out there and fix this shit so we can get on the road for real!
Yes, Ma'am miz neena, I'se goin' try to do better ma'am, yes Ma'am. 
OK, I think we have a verdict.
First off, I wish I had thought of the freezer/ heat gun hack before. Stub axle and outside axle outer race in the freezer, a little heat from the heat gun on the inner bearing and outer housing and she went together like buttah. I spent a hell of a lot of time cleaning and polishing parts today, too, but I really had to beat the snot out of the stub to get it all the way "home" in the inner bearing before, and maybe I never really did in the housing.
Anyways... best of the two used drums zipped right on, full cotter key hole, and only the barest almost imaginary bit of play. Don't forget the reason I discarded these was because they were run loose and the inner snouts were starting to wallow out where they ride against the outer spacer. This one is wallowed out the least, but I suspect that this is our barely perceptible remaining play.
Removed that one and put the new one on. Couldn't get the full cotter key hole and all that in- out end play is right back. Took it off, put the used one on, and full cotter key hole and barely perceptible play. Just like that. Night and day.
So there you have it.
Why don't you guys PM Manfred and see if he has a couple good used OEM rear drums and one used axle nut he'd be willing to overnight over to me? I'm bleepin' done for today. Sorry.
Oh... and F*CK aftermarket replacement parts.
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| Bryan67 wrote: |
| Just my hands. And a little lube. No tools. |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera |
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| Install the inner bearing and C-clip and see if the bearing outer race is walking in the housing. |
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