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Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera
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D/A/N
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
So it's not just me then, I hear ya and feel the same way.

I've been working on some prewar MG's lately, it may take 4 hours+ to fit a new simple part (even if it's OEM) because every part on those cars is file to fit, put on/take off, file, shim, curse, repeat ......, I don't even try to estimate time on some jobs on those any more.
At least the customer understands and is willing to pay for the asspain, hard to find a VW owner like that.


Exactly. And it isn't that the VW owner is even "cheap" so much as it is "What? I never had to pay for this/ do this before! You sure you know what you're doing here? I think you're taking me to the cleaners!"


You talkin' to me?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
So it's not just me then, I hear ya and feel the same way.

I've been working on some prewar MG's lately, it may take 4 hours+ to fit a new simple part (even if it's OEM) because every part on those cars is file to fit, put on/take off, file, shim, curse, repeat ......, I don't even try to estimate time on some jobs on those any more.
At least the customer understands and is willing to pay for the asspain, hard to find a VW owner like that.


Exactly. And it isn't that the VW owner is even "cheap" so much as it is "What? I never had to pay for this/ do this before! You sure you know what you're doing here? I think you're taking me to the cleaners!"


You talkin' to me?


Nah. Youtes guys won't need the cleaners when I get done with youse, Pally! Razz

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

to derail this thread a bit....

this is why I 99% of the time side with the shop until proven otherwise. most shops are not 'out to get you' when they decide to work on old stuff. the reality is a 10 minute job can blow into a weeks worth of bullshit....that bullshit needs to be paid for. it's isn't the shops problem that the only parts available are junk, and have to be worked out.

not calling the owner here cheap...but 95% of vw owners ARE. glad it has seemed to work out here. nothing worse than re-re-re-doing a job
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
to derail this thread a bit....

this is why I 99% of the time side with the shop until proven otherwise. most shops are not 'out to get you' when they decide to work on old stuff. the reality is a 10 minute job can blow into a weeks worth of bullshit....that bullshit needs to be paid for. it's isn't the shops problem that the only parts available are junk, and have to be worked out.

not calling the owner here cheap...but 95% of vw owners ARE. glad it has seemed to work out here. nothing worse than re-re-re-doing a job


And HOW. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Damn.....all you people trying to get Tram to raise our bill or what? I hope you're getting kickbacks! Just know that we've put in 18 long days of work ourselves these last few weeks, just not the last 3 days.

On another note, we ordered some WW German drums. But what else do we need? At the very least we have to fill .5mm of space/play around the inner bearing. Any news on whether or not the circlip mics out to 2mm? Should we try to hunt down an OG one? Other stuff?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Damn.....all you people trying to get Tram to raise our bill or what? I hope you're getting kickbacks! Just know that we've put in 18 long days of work ourselves these last few weeks, just not the last 3 days.

On another note, we ordered some WW German drums. But what else do we need? At the very least we have to fill .5mm of space/play around the inner bearing. Any news on whether or not the circlip mics out to 2mm? Should we try to hunt down an OG one? Other stuff?


You guys have been great, and you're starting to seem like long lost relatives from the Hood. On the other hand, there's the old saying "Friends are God's way of apologizing for relatives"... Think

Anyways, the only other thing I need is if you guys can pick up another OE nut from Miles... if not, I have the Vanagon ones. I checked with the machinist about my plan for blue Locktite plus a flywheel shim to take up the tiny bit of remaining slack and he said that's exactly correct. I haven't pulled it apart yet because I'm being a wimp about my #2gunfire shitty shoulder pain.

Here's where I am with this. I did a whole lot of miking and measuring on these damn drums (used OE v. new Mexican't) and it's just fucking amazing. Everything is off. The new snout is longer overall, but shorter on the brake side. I compared a fragment of one of the new castle nuts to the used OE one we got with the stub... and your recollection of the cotter key fitting with the second new nut before it cracked must be correct as the "castle" on the new nuts is about 4mm deeper- almost like they made these new shitty nuts specifically to work with the new shitty drums.

So- the new drum always WAS sitting all the way down on the splines- it was the used NUT that was different. That solves THAT mystery.

The shorter inner snout could explain why the new drums were trying to machine their way into the backing plates. The used drum rubs a LITTLE but the inner snout on that one was wallowed about .004" where it contacts the outer spacer due to running loose in a previous life- and that's certainly enough to completely eliminate the rubbing.

So tomorrow, my plan is to pull and get that bearing locktite-d and shimmed if necessary, spend some time dialing in the engine, check the brake push rod end play, see WTF is up with that radio cutting in and out, and some touch up dabbling with an artist's brush. I don't really think you guys NEED to be here tomorrow unless you just want to point and laugh at the "mechanic".

I'm not going to do another damn thing with the brakes OR the backing plates till we get our WW German drums, because a) I may not even need to and b) I really don't want to possibly cause more problems chasing my tail with these incorrect drums.

Thursday we'll have the drums sometime between late morning and early evening depending on which carrier they are using. Then we slap together, adjust the brakes, whack backing plates if necessary, and see where we are.

I'm cautiously optimistic that getting drums on here that are made like original will eliminate most if not all of our issues. I mean seriously- every comparison measurement I made was just like "whattheFOCK"!!! Rolling Eyes

I've got zero confidence they cast or machined ANYTHING straight on these drums at this point.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
to derail this thread a bit....

this is why I 99% of the time side with the shop until proven otherwise.


Until the "most reputable shop in San Diego" lets this out of their bay, for a few hundred bucks when "CS low idle and hard starting."


Link



I can't side with shops, because I am not one. I can't side with customers, because I've never spent a dollar at a shop in my life. What do I say when people hire me to teach them basic tune-ups and ownership skills and I find a receipt for a "$400 tune up" and the distributor is loose? I've never met a mechanic who was 'out to get' ANYBODY. But I have seen my fair share of disillusioned technicians who don't pay attention, and my fair share of disgruntled employees who aren't paid enough to double check their work.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

check the brake push rod end play
This would not cause week braking on cool brake shoes & drums.
The symptoms are as follows:
Pushrod too long = over heating the brake shoes and drums because the brakes are slightly applied all the time. Can cause brake fade if driven long enough to overheat brakes.
Pushrod too short = increased pedal action.

I think BD nailed this one. If the shoes where not contaminated during installation, you're not loosing fluid and the shoes are properly adjusted.
In yesteryears every auto parts store had a brake shoe Arcing machine.
Do to the inconsistencies in manufacturing (sound familiar) most shoes required arcing straight out of the box.
Some Heavy truck brake parts stores still provide this service.

Good luck
Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
check the brake push rod end play
This would not cause week braking on cool brake shoes & drums.
The symptoms are as follows:
Pushrod too long = over heating the brake shoes and drums because the brakes are slightly applied all the time. Can cause brake fade if driven long enough to overheat brakes.
Pushrod too short = increased pedal action.

I think BD nailed this one. If the shoes where not contaminated during installation, you're not loosing fluid and the shoes are properly adjusted.
In yesteryears every auto parts store had a brake shoe Arcing machine.
Do to the inconsistencies in manufacturing (sound familiar) most shoes required arcing straight out of the box.
Some Heavy truck brake parts stores still provide this service.

Good luck
Tcash


Tcash, that's exactly what it caused on the Type 3 I had this issue on earlier, due to being just long enough to not allow proper valve action. I had a good pedal but I had to stand on the brakes to even slow it down as soon as I took off. Once I figured out the problem and shortened the adjustment to the proper amount of free play it straightened right out.

Yes, I know it shouldn't happen but in my long front gravel driveway I did a "panic stop" and only the rears locked up before the adjustment. All 4 brake bleeders gravity bled normally.

As it wound up, the replacement new ATe cylinder was about 10mm shorter than the original. Wonder if that had something to do with it.

What I have noticed on the rear shoes is that there is indeed some erratic contact of the drum- only about the inner 1/2 of the shoes closest to the backing plate show contact. This could also be an issue with the drums, which is why aside from checking PR length I'm not going to drive myself batty over this issue- just yet.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

That's 25 minutes of my life I can't get back..

I'm going to guess the snout on the drum was finish-machined on the nut and bearing faces with the wrong offset from the inside edge of the drum (the edge that was cutting into the back plate). I'm sure you're past caring at this point but it'd be interesting to see a measurement comparison between the new and old drum from the inside face of the snout that adjoins the outer bearing to a straight edge across the back edge of the drum...

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

cool karmann collected wrote:
That's 25 minutes of my life I can't get back..

I'm going to guess the snout on the drum was finish-machined on the nut and bearing faces with the wrong offset from the inside edge of the drum (the edge that was cutting into the back plate). I'm sure you're past caring at this point but it'd be interesting to see a measurement comparison between the new and old drum from the inside face of the snout that adjoins the outer bearing to a straight edge across the back edge of the drum...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'll take pics of all this later as my primary focus is getting these folks on the road but the short version is that you are spot on.

Let's just start with saying that upside down resting on their outer snouts side by side the new drum is 1/4" taller than the original and that ain't the worst of it. Wink
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

As for the Loctite needed to secure the inner race and for use in Tram's plan to use flywheel shims to take up the .5mm of slack around the circlip, is this what we're looking at? I assume so, but there are a number of products in the "sleeve retainer" line:

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:40 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
As for the Loctite needed to secure the inner race and for use in Tram's plan to use flywheel shims to take up the .5mm of slack around the circlip, is this what we're looking at? I assume so, but there are a number of products in the "sleeve retainer" line:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Got Permatex 64000 blue sleeve retainer already. Relax. Enjoy the coast. It's still a smoky oven over here. Laughing

Tomorrow is do or die day, or Drum Day. Keeping fingers, toes, arms, legs, and eyes crossed.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

I have had Mexican drums and Chinese Castle nuts weld themselves together so badly they had to be removed with a high speed cut off tool,,,,very carefully. These parts must be measured against OG and should be rejected when out of spec.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

cool karmann collected wrote:
That's 25 minutes of my life I can't get back..

I'm going to guess the snout on the drum was finish-machined on the nut and bearing faces with the wrong offset from the inside edge of the drum (the edge that was cutting into the back plate). I'm sure you're past caring at this point but it'd be interesting to see a measurement comparison between the new and old drum from the inside face of the snout that adjoins the outer bearing to a straight edge across the back edge of the drum...

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Measurement comparison to snout from a a straight edge laid across the the inside edge of the drum shows that the inner snout is 1/8" (3.2mm) deeper on the new drum than on the original.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Manfred58sc wrote:
I have had Mexican drums and Chinese Castle nuts weld themselves together so badly they had to be removed with a high speed cut off tool,,,,very carefully. These parts must be measured against OG and should be rejected when out of spec.


So we are finding out. Things are WAY out of spec. Rolling Eyes
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:18 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
to derail this thread a bit....

this is why I 99% of the time side with the shop until proven otherwise. most shops are not 'out to get you' when they decide to work on old stuff. the reality is a 10 minute job can blow into a weeks worth of bullshit....that bullshit needs to be paid for. it's isn't the shops problem that the only parts available are junk, and have to be worked out.

not calling the owner here cheap...but 95% of vw owners ARE. glad it has seemed to work out here. nothing worse than re-re-re-doing a job


People don't like hearing this on any vintage forum but modern cars are so much better than what we drive here, from any standpoints of performance and reliability. The art of troubleshooting problems is dying, and the rate of death is accelerating. Service departments just don't see the esoteric failures like they used to, that department has been reduced to reading a code and replacing a part.

That being said, if you start your post with " it was running fine and then suddenly..." You are driving the wrong car. It wasn't sudden, it was long neglect of your beast.

Of course, people don't want to pay for troubleshooting. Got a P0455 on your Volvo? I can spend 10 hours smoking it, the drive cycling it forever , giving it back to you , then having the code show up three months later because you won't follow drive cycle instructions, then suffer you going on social media to tell the world I screwed you...or just do oil changes And brake jobs at much higher margin.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:44 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Dealerships ruined it...

Free this and free that have been paid for off the backs of the techs...if I can't get paid to properly diag something.....I won't. You can work 60 hrs in a dealer and only get paid 20. The minute my house is paid for, I'm done....

The car biz isn't what it once was....
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Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public.

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Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 5:41 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

New cars are hit or miss from what I see. I no longer recommend ownership, just lease ( 3 year max) whatever fits your fancy and return the over-engineered experiment to its maker. That way the transportation is a fixed cost more or less. The window on keeping older cars on the road is closing fast (outside of toys going to the car show) and can't be helped. I keep very large stashes of OG for my own fleet, but I've run out of some stuff and no longer feel very confident on long trips. But ... why travel anymore ( just watch it on you-tube or pay a few bucks for a virtual tour ) the US is just one revolving corporate experience ( "That Panera Bread sure was better than the last one..").
Anyway, I'm sending a good housing their way so they can get home.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

leasing is too expensive long term. Gotta save on the front side and pay for the car with cash. Make payments back to yourself to replenish the cash. The only time finance or leasing makes sense is when inflation is greater than the cost of the financing, which is rare. Most lower then market rates are buy-downs - meaning you pay more for the car that if you had cash, and that more is used to lower the rate. Lessons of working 30 years in consumer finance.
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