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Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera
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Tram
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 9:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Install the inner bearing and C-clip and see if the bearing outer race is walking in the housing.


I did and it wasn't. The aftermarket new drum is the issue. See long post above.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

skills@eurocarsplus wrote:
the nut not pinching everything together is an issue. it could be the nut "snout" on the drum is incorrect, or the inner "snout" isn't deep enough.

basically, like the pipe idea the drum is nothing more than a spacer to pinch the bearing stack together...you just need to find where the deficit is...either the drum of the aftermarket spacer. sadly, you can't snake the big girl spacer out without removing the bearing.....and getting all covered in poop again


Ya know, Skills, you're a jackass just like me and we've always despised each other but as it winds up I gotta say you actually called the problem on Page 1. Maybe you're not really as worthless as you are. Laughing Props.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

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Good luck
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
Click on pic
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Good luck
Tcash


Good tips for future reference, actually. Thanks!
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

I am having trouble figuring out what is going on here. You said that:

"If I drop the drum onto the stub axle sitting on the bench it drops on far enough that I can wind the nut on BY HAND to several turns beyond where I need it to be to get the full cotter key hole, so unfortunately that ain't it."

So it sounds like the new drum fits fine onto the axle shaft. Also when you assembled the stack outside the hub it sounds like the bearing was pressing against the inner spacer, yet for some reason when assembled in the hub the drum wasn't going all the way on and the race for the inner race for the outer bearing must not have been tight against the spacer.

Please tell me what I am missing here?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
I am having trouble figuring out what is going on here. You said that:

"If I drop the drum onto the stub axle sitting on the bench it drops on far enough that I can wind the nut on BY HAND to several turns beyond where I need it to be to get the full cotter key hole, so unfortunately that ain't it."

So it sounds like the new drum fits fine onto the axle shaft. Also when you assembled the stack outside the hub it sounds like the bearing was pressing against the inner spacer, yet for some reason when assembled in the hub the drum wasn't going all the way on and the race for the inner race for the outer bearing must not have been tight against the spacer.

Please tell me what I am missing here?


Old OEM used drum fits right with no play.
New aftermarket drum hides part of the cotter key hole and has play.

As to why? I'm beyond giving a shit at this point. Laughing An OEM used drum works. I'm going with what works.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 1:09 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
I am having trouble figuring out what is going on here. You said that:

"If I drop the drum onto the stub axle sitting on the bench it drops on far enough that I can wind the nut on BY HAND to several turns beyond where I need it to be to get the full cotter key hole, so unfortunately that ain't it."

So it sounds like the new drum fits fine onto the axle shaft. Also when you assembled the stack outside the hub it sounds like the bearing was pressing against the inner spacer, yet for some reason when assembled in the hub the drum wasn't going all the way on and the race for the inner race for the outer bearing must not have been tight against the spacer.

Please tell me what I am missing here?


Old OEM used drum fits right with no play.
New aftermarket drum hides part of the cotter key hole and has play.

As to why? I'm beyond giving a shit at this point. Laughing An OEM used drum works. I'm going with what works.


Wait, this is assembled or not? On Saturday, there was play with both drums with everything in place on the bus.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:53 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Well drat, it seems we are all left to speculate about the cause of the grossly excessive play when the axle nut is tight.
I can't see how any brake drum, whether new and badly made, or old and correct, can have any effect on that play, unless
it is jamming on the end of the splines on the stub shaft and not actually contacting the spacer.
It keeps being said that the inner ball bearing is not moving, because it had to be pressed in, but I've had to "press" in
inner bearings that moved easily in/out and rotated on its seat with finger pressure. Also, there are incorrectly made
snap rings being sold that are too thin, and allow axial movement. I got one from Bus Depot that was 1.5 mm thick
instead of the correct 2 mm.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
I am having trouble figuring out what is going on here. You said that:

"If I drop the drum onto the stub axle sitting on the bench it drops on far enough that I can wind the nut on BY HAND to several turns beyond where I need it to be to get the full cotter key hole, so unfortunately that ain't it."

So it sounds like the new drum fits fine onto the axle shaft. Also when you assembled the stack outside the hub it sounds like the bearing was pressing against the inner spacer, yet for some reason when assembled in the hub the drum wasn't going all the way on and the race for the inner race for the outer bearing must not have been tight against the spacer.

Please tell me what I am missing here?


Old OEM used drum fits right with no play.
New aftermarket drum hides part of the cotter key hole and has play.

As to why? I'm beyond giving a shit at this point. Laughing An OEM used drum works. I'm going with what works.


Wait, this is assembled or not? On Saturday, there was play with both drums with everything in place on the bus.


I have it temporarily assembled with the best of the used brake drums. Today I'll swap drums side to side but there are a few other things I want to get done first.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:09 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
Well drat, it seems we are all left to speculate about the cause of the grossly excessive play when the axle nut is tight.
I can't see how any brake drum, whether new and badly made, or old and correct, can have any effect on that play, unless
it is jamming on the end of the splines on the stub shaft and not actually contacting the spacer.
It keeps being said that the inner ball bearing is not moving, because it had to be pressed in, but I've had to "press" in
inner bearings that moved easily in/out and rotated on its seat with finger pressure. Also, there are incorrectly made
snap rings being sold that are too thin, and allow axial movement. I got one from Bus Depot that was 1.5 mm thick
instead of the correct 2 mm.


So they can't even get the snap rings right now? Swell. Rolling Eyes

Yes, I know it's strange. Yes, I know it doesn't make a whole lotta sense. I really don't get it either. All I know is what I see with one drum to another plus the fact that, as I mentioned earlier, 95% of the "WTF?" VW problems I see are due to shitty replacement parts that just fail in utterly amazing ways.

There's still slight play with the used drum, but it's *almost* what I would consider "acceptable float", likely less than a mm. Could it be the snap ring issue you mention? Maybe. Thanks for that. But when I put on the new drum, I get a couple to a few mm play straight in and out just like what we started with. I switched between drums a couple times and the results were dead consistent.

Why does the new drum only go on as far as it does when it's assembled? You got me. No clue. As I said earlier when I had the bare stub on the bench, the drum dropped right on the splines and all the way down, no issue. Go fish. Confused
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
I am having trouble figuring out what is going on here. You said that:

"If I drop the drum onto the stub axle sitting on the bench it drops on far enough that I can wind the nut on BY HAND to several turns beyond where I need it to be to get the full cotter key hole, so unfortunately that ain't it."

So it sounds like the new drum fits fine onto the axle shaft. Also when you assembled the stack outside the hub it sounds like the bearing was pressing against the inner spacer, yet for some reason when assembled in the hub the drum wasn't going all the way on and the race for the inner race for the outer bearing must not have been tight against the spacer.

Please tell me what I am missing here?


Old OEM used drum fits right with no play.
New aftermarket drum hides part of the cotter key hole and has play.

As to why? I'm beyond giving a shit at this point. Laughing An OEM used drum works. I'm going with what works.


Wait, this is assembled or not? On Saturday, there was play with both drums with everything in place on the bus.


I have it temporarily assembled with the best of the used brake drums. Today I'll swap drums side to side but there are a few other things I want to get done first.


Well, if that solves it, I'm glad. I just don't get how on Saturday the used OEM drum made no difference and now it's the solution. Same used drum?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:46 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
D/A/N wrote:
Tram wrote:
Wildthings wrote:
I am having trouble figuring out what is going on here. You said that:

"If I drop the drum onto the stub axle sitting on the bench it drops on far enough that I can wind the nut on BY HAND to several turns beyond where I need it to be to get the full cotter key hole, so unfortunately that ain't it."

So it sounds like the new drum fits fine onto the axle shaft. Also when you assembled the stack outside the hub it sounds like the bearing was pressing against the inner spacer, yet for some reason when assembled in the hub the drum wasn't going all the way on and the race for the inner race for the outer bearing must not have been tight against the spacer.

Please tell me what I am missing here?


Old OEM used drum fits right with no play.
New aftermarket drum hides part of the cotter key hole and has play.

As to why? I'm beyond giving a shit at this point. Laughing An OEM used drum works. I'm going with what works.


Wait, this is assembled or not? On Saturday, there was play with both drums with everything in place on the bus.


I have it temporarily assembled with the best of the used brake drums. Today I'll swap drums side to side but there are a few other things I want to get done first.


Well, if that solves it, I'm glad. I just don't get how on Saturday the used OEM drum made no difference and now it's the solution. Same used drum?


Yes, but see above where I spent a copious amount of time cleaning/ polishing the new stub, then I put the stub in the freezer and heated the bearing with a heat gun to make it go together easier. It's possible I never had the stub quite all the way seated before.

Grasping at straws.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:12 am    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:


Yes, but see above where I spent a copious amount of time cleaning/ polishing the new stub, then I put the stub in the freezer and heated the bearing with a heat gun to make it go together easier. It's possible I never had the stub quite all the way seated before.

Grasping at straws.


Gotcha. We plan to head back your way in a few hours and don't want to pack up the bus in anticipation of leaving and then unpack it on account of an issue yet again so if this isn't a semi-permanent to permanent fix, let us know!!

All the rubbing is gone too, right?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

neena wrote:
Tram wrote:


Yes, but see above where I spent a copious amount of time cleaning/ polishing the new stub, then I put the stub in the freezer and heated the bearing with a heat gun to make it go together easier. It's possible I never had the stub quite all the way seated before.

Grasping at straws.


Gotcha. We plan to head back your way in a few hours and don't want to pack up the bus in anticipation of leaving and then unpack it on account of an issue yet again so if this isn't a semi-permanent to permanent fix, let us know!!

All the rubbing is gone too, right?


Not yet! I still need to put the axle, etc. back on but before that I am going to pull it back apart quickly to check for any float on the inner bearing and mike the snap ring. Then we have the good pedal but doesn't want to stop issue to chase but I have a fairly solid idea what that is.

THEN we need to get the carb properly set.

Sorry, I'm just one guy with two hands!
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

kreemoweet wrote:
Well drat, it seems we are all left to speculate about the cause of the grossly excessive play when the axle nut is tight.
I can't see how any brake drum, whether new and badly made, or old and correct, can have any effect on that play, unless
it is jamming on the end of the splines on the stub shaft and not actually contacting the spacer.
It keeps being said that the inner ball bearing is not moving, because it had to be pressed in, but I've had to "press" in
inner bearings that moved easily in/out and rotated on its seat with finger pressure. Also, there are incorrectly made
snap rings being sold that are too thin, and allow axial movement. I got one from Bus Depot that was 1.5 mm thick
instead of the correct 2 mm.


What did you do to make up the .5mm of slack? A shim? Or were you able to find the right snap ring?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
.........Then we have the good pedal but doesn't want to stop issue to chase but I have a fairly solid idea what that is......

Is your idea something along these lines?: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8293061#8293061
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Tram wrote:
.........Then we have the good pedal but doesn't want to stop issue to chase but I have a fairly solid idea what that is......

Is your idea something along these lines?: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8293061#8293061


Actually, no, but... really? Brick wall Laughing

I replaced a master cylinder on a Type 3 a few months ago that had the identical issue and the rule has always been you don't touch the length of the push rod but that just ain't so anymore... even with new ATe cylinders. So, first thing I was going to check was for proper clearance at the rod.

Honestly, if I find that issue with the new shoes I think my VW days are over. They may be already anyways because I went back to double- check myself on the original issue of end float and yep, the inner bearing moves in and out just about 1/2 mm with my fingers even though I had to drive it in there with an appropriate large socket. Now I get to find out if the fucking snap ring is 0,5mm thinner than it should be like kreemoweet found, or if it's a new defective bearing.

I'm not going to bail on customers ACVW projects I already have in the queue, but I'm going to choke it off beyond that. I have to. I love these cars and I always will, and I'll always have a few around for myself, but this is a business decision. So far on this project I've dealt with splitting push rod tubes, three bad drums, two bad axle nuts, a bad rebuilt carburetor, shitty one- piece heater box to muffler clamps that just don't, shitty gaskets under the clamps, and now this. It's just no longer productive. When I can either work on on a Mercedes or a Porsche and get the correct parts that work right off and troubleshooting and diagnosis are straightforward or flail with this shit this ain't a good option. This is nothing against the owners and nothing against the Bus, but this is day 9 of dealing with new parts issues after the initial road test and I could have been banking $50/ 75 an hour plus 20% on parts working on other stuff during that time. Or I could have read a few good books for the same amount of revenue. If this was a Benz it would have been turn the key, road test it, inspect it, and gone.

I'm not in this for my health! Evil or Very Mad
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

So it's not just me then, I hear ya and feel the same way.

I've been working on some prewar MG's lately, it may take 4 hours+ to fit a new simple part (even if it's OEM) because every part on those cars is file to fit, put on/take off, file, shim, curse, repeat ......, I don't even try to estimate time on some jobs on those any more.
At least the customer understands and is willing to pay for the asspain, hard to find a VW owner like that.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

here is a thread from another Samba forum with a similar kind of drum problem that I think Tram is describing. See the difference in height?

gestatin wrote:
Here are a couple pics detailing the difference in height (or depth,if you prefer) of the splined section of the drums. Part numbers are correct for 64-67 bus. What I do find interesting though is that the part number and "VW" are different sized font. Also the swirly ribs are different sizes with one drum being noticeably larger.

Anyway, I've got them shimmed right now so the axle nut shows two threads or so on the outboard side.Hubcaps are still a bit close to the stub axle and are actually (barely) touching. The drums feel well centered and do not rub on the shoes.

Insights? Here's the pics:


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Stub axle/bearing woes on a 70 Riviera Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
So it's not just me then, I hear ya and feel the same way.

I've been working on some prewar MG's lately, it may take 4 hours+ to fit a new simple part (even if it's OEM) because every part on those cars is file to fit, put on/take off, file, shim, curse, repeat ......, I don't even try to estimate time on some jobs on those any more.
At least the customer understands and is willing to pay for the asspain, hard to find a VW owner like that.


Exactly. And it isn't that the VW owner is even "cheap" so much as it is "What? I never had to pay for this/ do this before! You sure you know what you're doing here? I think you're taking me to the cleaners!"

On the prewar Brit stuff, YOU know what to expect and the CUSTOMER knows what to expect because it's always been like this. But it's never been LIKE THIS on ACVWs before. I never know what to expect and I always feel like a beginner now because the shittiness of the parts is constantly moving the cheese. It's tough to make consistent cream out of shit when you're always getting shittier shit. Rolling Eyes
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