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H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light
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jtauxe
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:21 am    Post subject: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

I finally figured out what that extra gray wire into the headlight bucket was for on my Mexican single cab. The truck was built to euro spec, so this is for the integral parking light. We might call this a daytime running light here in the US. US spec buses do not have this feature.

These were also mentioned in this thread from some time ago:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=383293

I am bring this truck back to its original factory spec (front and rear fog lights and all sort of jazz with the Z21 M-code package) and that includes these headlights that have the parking light built in (BusDepot calls these "city lights":

http://www.busdepot.com/hq6014

The trouble I am having is that the headlight buckets, which support the headlights, do not allow for the small running light bulb housing, which is offset to the bottom. The running light bumps into the ring behind the headlight, tapped for the three small retaining ring screws. I imagine that some PO switched out the buckets with US spec buckets when they taped off the running light wires.

I suppose I could modify these buckets by cutting out part of them with a Dremel or something, but I'd rather locate a pair of proper euro-style headlight buckets that can accommodate the running lights.

Anyone ever see these or know where to find them?
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 10:27 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

Couple sets here:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/classifieds/search.php...ton=Search
Keep in mind they are a 1 peice unit (trim ring/lens/reflector/mount) and use a different bulb (not H4).

Edit: lots of good stuff in this thread as well: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=675861&highlight=
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

I had done a search in the classifieds. I guess I did not know what to look for, but I think you found it!

And the other thread... Funny that, I had posted there some time back.

So it seems that the answer to my question is that I really need new headlight mounting rings.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:07 pm    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

I've now got some euro-spec H4 headlight assemblies (lens+reflector as a single unit, plus back mounting ring, plus front crome ring) on my desk that I can take a picture of for you, if that helps. Just let me know.

Note that even here in Europe I've never come across folks selling the mounting ring separately, so you might have to buy the full lamp assembly. Sometimes people sell their heavily rusted headlights (mostly the reflector) at a good price, and the mounting ring is still ok.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Keep in mind they are a 1 peice unit (trim ring/lens/reflector/mount) and use a different bulb (not H4).


Note that the ones I've got can be taken apart as:

- Trim ring (chromed plastic. 1 single mounting screw)
- Lens/reflector (single unit)
- Mount ring (not trivial to take apart, but can be done with some care. Holds mounting and adjusting screws)

This applies to both the R2 and H4 headlight assemblies I've got.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 07, 2017 2:54 pm    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

furgo wrote:
I've now got some euro-spec H4 headlight assemblies (lens+reflector as a single unit, plus back mounting ring, plus front chrome ring) on my desk that I can take a picture of for you, if that helps. Just let me know.

If you don't mind, yes, that would be helpful. I'm interested to know if there is more than one way to handle the DRL bulb issue. One way is to use the different chrome rings that have the two extra adjustment screws in addition to the one mounting screw that we are all familiar with here.

It seems that your setup may be another way this was done.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:58 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

Here you go:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The only thing missing is the single-screw plastic chrome trim ring for each unit, as it's on the bus. You see them dismantled as I'm in the process of restoring them. The mount rings were originally zinc-plated, but in the process of removing the rust (citric acid), the little zinc that was left was also removed. You now see them with a coat of primer.

The headlights came from a Golf I, but I believe they are exactly the same ones that were used as an upgrade for European buses. From the outside, they're mostly the same as the also Euro-spec headlights with R2 incandescent lamps the PO replaced the US sealed beams with. The only visible difference is the fact that the lenses from the non-halogen headlights had more of a dome shape. The H4 ones are nearly flat.

I hope this helps!
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:26 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

The Lenses for all British & European specification, 1974~79 VW Type 2 headlamps are all flat, irrespective of whether they have 45/40W glass-envelope bulbs with P45t mounting flanges or 60/55W quartz-halogen bulbs with P43t mounting flanges. It was only the earlier multi-piece, 1968~73 VW Type 2 headlamps, which had the removable convex lenses.

The small 9 mm pilot bulb, is normally rated at 4W or 5W, like side-marker lights and is not bright enough to be a DRL - daytime running light. They are designated as side lights, parking lights or front position lights, which in Great Britain may be used in conjunction with just a matched pair of front fog lights, in fog or falling snow.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

Thanks for the info, Nigel.

Were these headlights with the integral "parking lights" mounted to the vehicle with the special three-screw trim rings, or with the one-screw ones that we are familiar with here in the US?

If the one-screw rings, how is there room for the offset parking light bulb? Mine bumps into the mounting ring, but there must have been a way...
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

jtauxe wrote:
Thanks for the info, Nigel.

Were these headlights with the integral "parking lights" mounted to the vehicle with the special three-screw trim rings, or with the one-screw ones that we are familiar with here in the US?

If the one-screw rings, how is there room for the offset parking light bulb? Mine bumps into the mounting ring, but there must have been a way...


Those for 1968~73 VW Type 2s had a "trim-ring" with three holes, of which two were for beam-aiming adjustment screws and the third for attachment of the multi-piece attachment to the vehicle.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Screw A = Horizontal (i.e. lateral) beam-aiming screw
Screw B = Vertical beam-aiming screw
Screw C = Headlamp-unit securing screw

Those for 1979~74 VW Type 2s had a "trim-ring" with only one hole, for attachment of the separate trim-ring to the vehicle. The lamp unit was mounted by means of three L-shaped brackets inside the vehicle-body's lamp housing.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Right-hand drive, left-dipping, 1974~79 VW Type 2, Hella bulb-type headlamp units, with P45t flanged, 100/80W H4 bulbs, retro-fitted to my British specification, right-hand drive, 1973 VW "1600" Type 2, Westfalia Continental campervan, after welding three DIY-fabricated mounting lugs, into the bodywork's headlamp bucket, to mount the headlamp unit.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=499037

These lugs, supplement the single factory-fitted lug, which is all that is required to mount British & European specification, 1968~73 VW Type 2 headlamp units, with integral trim-ring.

Refer to the following links, for clarification:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=420351

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=420350

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=420349

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=338649
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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 7:02 pm    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light - Fixed Reply with quote

Well, this was a long and confusing saga.

TLDR: Use the Hellas without the inner trim ring.

In summary:

In an attempt to install headlights compatible with the original 4-conductor wiring I found in my headlight buckets (1975 single cab with ME export code), I purchased a pair of "Euro" style head lights from BusDepot:

http://www.busdepot.com/hq6014

While these worked electrically,

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I could not get them mounted into the headlight mounting ring. The parking light mount is positioned such that it runs right into the mounting ring. This can't be right:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Though I will say that the inner trim ring does fit:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


There was no way this headlight was fitting in the mounting ring, though, and in fact I never did figure out how it was supposed to work. I gave up on these, and found the correct solution:

The Correct Solution

Hella sells these, apparently all over Europe:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


They are flat on the face, and have a hole in the back to accept the mount for the parking lamp:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Note that there is no conflict with the mounting ring, as it is of a very different design. I ended up having to find the mount in Europe as well, in a later hunt. It takes a regular 4-W parking light bulb:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The headlight buckets (here repainted in light gray) Have the four-wire harness and three mounting rings:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The electricals hook up like in the above photo, and the headlight simply mounts to the rings:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


What had me confused was how to mount the inner trim ring onto the headlight -- it simply would not go. As it turns out, after some experimentation I determined that the inner ring is simply not used -- there is no need for it since the headlight is integral with its mounting ring, and the ring mounts directly to the three tabs in the headlight bucket. Here it is with no inner ring -- just the outer trim ring:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


and

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Here is the result, with just the parking lights on:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Wed May 02, 2018 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light - Fixed Reply with quote

Nice work!, thanks for posting the final result.
Bummer that the first set were mis advertised, I guess if there were no other option you could notch mount ring to clear, but I like your solution more.
Regarding this:
jtauxe wrote:
Here is the result, with just the parking lights on:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Most Euro systems use a single filament signal and the only thing that lights up on the first pull of the headlight switch is the small bulbs in the headlights, no yellow or orange lights lit unless turning a corner (I don't even think they had the tiny side marker bulbs in the signals). I'm a fan of as many lights as possible for visibility, just pointing it out if you are bent on making it 100% correct.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 8:36 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Nice work!, thanks for posting the final result.
Bummer that the first set were mis advertised, I guess if there were no other option you could notch mount ring to clear, but I like your solution more.
Regarding this:
jtauxe wrote:
Here is the result, with just the parking lights on:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Most Euro systems use a single filament signal and the only thing that lights up on the first pull of the headlight switch is the small bulbs in the headlights, no yellow or orange lights lit unless turning a corner (I don't even think they had the tiny side marker bulbs in the signals). I'm a fan of as many lights as possible for visibility, just pointing it out if you are bent on making it 100% correct.


You are quite correct that British, European & non-North American 1973~79 VW Type 2s do NOT have twin-filament bulbs in the direction-indicator lamp unit, NOR do they have a small 4W single-filament side-marker light bulb in the same lamp unit.

There is only a single-filament 21W bulb direction-indicator lamp unit, whose purpose is solely as a flashing turn-signal.

There are NO side-marker lights or reflectors of any description

The 4W parking-light bulb is located in the headlamp unit
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 9:39 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

Regarding the lights in the orange turn signal housing...

On my Irish 1978 double cab, the turn signal housings indeed had no side marker bulbs, nor did the truck have side markers on the body (front doors and rear fenders). The housings are different from the US ones, in that there is no place even to mount the side marker bulbs. That is consistent with what you say, Nigel.

Curiously, on this 1975 Mexican single cab, there ARE side marker lights and dual bulb lights in the turn signal housings, and the original wiring is there to support them. This is in addition to the parking light arrangement in the headlights themselves, which also has original wiring.

So, that's an interesting hybrid. I don't know what VW was thinking when they built this truck for the Puebla plant. Maybe they wanted to include more lights. Though they did not go so far as to include side markers on the body.

NASkeet wrote:
You are quite correct that British, European & non-North American 1973~79 VW Type 2s do NOT have twin-filament bulbs in the direction-indicator lamp unit, NOR do they have a small 4W single-filament side-marker light bulb in the same lamp unit.

There is only a single-filament 21W bulb direction-indicator lamp unit, whose purpose is solely as a flashing turn-signal.

There are NO side-marker lights or reflectors of any description

The 4W parking-light bulb is located in the headlamp unit

I am confused by this statement Nigel. EVERY US Type 2 1973-1979 I have seen or worked on, and that is a LOT of them, has had the 4-W side marker bulbs and turn signal bulbs in the housing.

Maybe I misunderstood you.
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PostPosted: Thu May 03, 2018 10:18 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

jtauxe wrote:
Regarding the lights in the orange turn signal housing...

On my Irish 1978 double cab, the turn signal housings indeed had no side marker bulbs, nor did the truck have side markers on the body (front doors and rear fenders). The housings are different from the US ones, in that there is no place even to mount the side marker bulbs. That is consistent with what you say, Nigel.

Curiously, on this 1975 Mexican single cab, there ARE side marker lights and dual bulb lights in the turn signal housings, and the original wiring is there to support them. This is in addition to the parking light arrangement in the headlights themselves, which also has original wiring.

So, that's an interesting hybrid. I don't know what VW was thinking when they built this truck for the Puebla plant. Maybe they wanted to include more lights. Though they did not go so far as to include side markers on the body.

NASkeet wrote:
You are quite correct that British, European & non-North American 1973~79 VW Type 2s do NOT have twin-filament bulbs in the direction-indicator lamp unit, NOR do they have a small 4W single-filament side-marker light bulb in the same lamp unit.

There is only a single-filament 21W bulb direction-indicator lamp unit, whose purpose is solely as a flashing turn-signal.

There are NO side-marker lights or reflectors of any description

The 4W parking-light bulb is located in the headlamp unit

I am confused by this statement Nigel. EVERY US Type 2 1973-1979 I have seen or worked on, and that is a LOT of them, has had the 4-W side marker bulbs and turn signal bulbs in the housing.

Maybe I misunderstood you.

Try reading it again putting emphasis on the red part Wink

Not sure how Mexican lighting laws work, maybe they just checked off every single option box when ordering the truck?
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:01 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
jtauxe wrote:
Regarding the lights in the orange turn signal housing...
<snip>

NASkeet wrote:
You are quite correct that British, European & non-North American 1973~79 VW Type 2s do NOT have twin-filament bulbs in the direction-indicator lamp unit, NOR do they have a small 4W single-filament side-marker light bulb in the same lamp unit.
<snip>

I am confused by this statement Nigel. EVERY US Type 2 1973-1979 I have seen or worked on, and that is a LOT of them, has had the 4-W side marker bulbs and turn signal bulbs in the housing.

Maybe I misunderstood you.

Try reading it again putting emphasis on the red part Wink

Not sure how Mexican lighting laws work, maybe they just checked off every single option box when ordering the truck?

Embarassed Funny the difference a "not" can make. Like I said, maybe I misunderstood him. Rolling Eyes My bad.

As I was told by Jones, the VW Dealer in San Antonio who acquired this pickup from the Puebla plant, VW indeed added every whistle and bell aside from the Arctic package (no aux heater, etc.) for exactly the purpose of allowing the Mexican factory the opportunity to see what could be ordered.

I expect that no actual pickup trucks ordered had all these features, but I don't know that. I will say that finding and reinstalling all these whistles and bells has at times been quite challenging.
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 8:22 am    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

jtauxe wrote:
Regarding the lights in the orange turn signal housing...

On my Irish 1978 double cab, the turn signal housings indeed had no side marker bulbs, nor did the truck have side markers on the body (front doors and rear fenders). The housings are different from the US ones, in that there is no place even to mount the side marker bulbs. That is consistent with what you say, Nigel.

Curiously, on this 1975 Mexican single cab, there ARE side marker lights and dual bulb lights in the turn signal housings, and the original wiring is there to support them. This is in addition to the parking light arrangement in the headlights themselves, which also has original wiring.

So, that's an interesting hybrid. I don't know what VW was thinking when they built this truck for the Puebla plant. Maybe they wanted to include more lights. Though they did not go so far as to include side markers on the body.

NASkeet wrote:
You are quite correct that British, European & non-North American 1973~79 VW Type 2s do NOT have twin-filament bulbs in the direction-indicator lamp unit, NOR do they have a small 4W single-filament side-marker light bulb in the same lamp unit.

There is only a single-filament 21W bulb direction-indicator lamp unit, whose purpose is solely as a flashing turn-signal.

There are NO side-marker lights or reflectors of any description

The 4W parking-light bulb is located in the headlamp unit

I am confused by this statement Nigel. EVERY US Type 2 1973-1979 I have seen or worked on, and that is a LOT of them, has had the 4-W side marker bulbs and turn signal bulbs in the housing.

Maybe I misunderstood you.


I believe you misunderstood me! Shocked

I said that NON-North American 1973~79 VW Type 2s, only have the large single-filament 21W bulb in the front direction-indicator lamp units.

North American 1973~79 VW Type 2s, have a large twin-filament 21/5W bulb
for the turn-signal & parking-light function plus the small single-filament 4W bulb for the front side-marker light function, in the front direction-indicator lamp units.
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PostPosted: Fri May 04, 2018 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: H4 headlights with integral parking (running) light Reply with quote

I found a replacement LED "filament" bulb sold here in the UK that is noticeably brighter than a filament bulb for the 4 watt fitting.

As it is an LED bulb it should last longer so is more use for daylight running, or what goes for daylight many days here in the UK.

http://www.halfords.com/motoring/bulbs-blades-batt...-bulbs-x-2
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