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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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 Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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I have a 1973 super and intermittently when i press on the brake, the engine dies. Also the drivers side brake light is not working anymore. the tail lights are fine, but the brake light on the driver's side is out.
All the fuses are intact.
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1969 Karmann Ghia
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1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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Bama Dave
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2015
Posts: 963
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:17 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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Does it die when pressing the brake sitting still or coming to stop?
If sitting still, then its all a wiring issue. Even if it does that while moving, coming to a stop, it is likely a wiring issue. Have you checked the carb idle cutoff wire for security?
_________________
David Richerson
1970 Beetle
1971 Super
1972 Baja
| hellthorne wrote: |
| First off, I know i made stupid decisions that led to my predicament, so while you are welcome to tell me that I am an idiot for doing the things I did, please know that I am already aware of this. |
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:26 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| Bama Dave wrote: |
Does it die when pressing the brake sitting still or coming to stop?
If sitting still, then its all a wiring issue. Even if it does that while moving, coming to a stop, it is likely a wiring issue. Have you checked the carb idle cutoff wire for security? |
it happens when coming to a stop. the idle cut off is connected.
_________________
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1969 Karmann Ghia
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1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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jwp67
Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2012
Posts: 657
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:44 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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Check the float in the carb and make sure that small plastic piece that holds the float in is pointed the right direction. If not it will give the carb a higher gas level and slosh over into the manifold and kill the car when coming to a stop. Ask me how I know. Have you had the carb apart recently?
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21 million of these cars were built,and everyone of them were sold...kinda astounding given how unreliable they are.---johhnypan |
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Bama Dave
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2015
Posts: 963
Location: Alabama
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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Well, besides ensuring the wiring is all connected snugly, have you considered the carburetor? Has the carb been rebuilt, or cleaned lately? Is the choke working properly?
Have you adjusted anything else lately that may have any effect on this?
It's either gas or electricity...think about what might move when stopping. Fuel moves forward. Wires could move too.
Just trying to help.
_________________
David Richerson
1970 Beetle
1971 Super
1972 Baja
| hellthorne wrote: |
| First off, I know i made stupid decisions that led to my predicament, so while you are welcome to tell me that I am an idiot for doing the things I did, please know that I am already aware of this. |
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 3:04 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| Bama Dave wrote: |
Well, besides ensuring the wiring is all connected snugly, have you considered the carburetor? Has the carb been rebuilt, or cleaned lately? Is the choke working properly?
Have you adjusted anything else lately that may have any effect on this?
It's either gas or electricity...think about what might move when stopping. Fuel moves forward. Wires could move too.
Just trying to help. |
There have been no changes to the carburetor lately. It may be wiring. I'll have to comb through. I just figured someone might be aware of a common circuit or ground in common. The right side won't work so that's a sign of wiring issues.
_________________
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1969 Karmann Ghia
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1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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If one of your brake lights is working normally then your brake switches are working. There is only ONE black/red brake light wire running from the MC at the front to the rear of the car. This wire splits at the junction behind the left side engine tar paper. Pull the tar paper and look for this black/red wire. You should see it go into one side of the 8-wire junction. Two wires on one side of the connection and a single red wire running to the left rear light assembly on the other side of the junction. The second black/red wire runs over to the right side of the car to power the right brake light.
Use your test lamp or voltmeter to check the red wire for 12v when you step on the brake pedal.
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AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road  }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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heimlich 
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6621
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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Show us a picture of your engine and coil.
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Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| kawfee wrote: |
| Show us a picture of your engine and coil. |
_________________
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1969 Karmann Ghia
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1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:15 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| tenseventythree wrote: |
| kawfee wrote: |
| Show us a picture of your engine and coil. |
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Ditch the clear cap, those are crap.
Is that intake heater tube opened? Someone just hacked it off and left it?
Your distributor position is about 45 degrees clockwise from where mine is at. How did you go about setting your timing?
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**1971 Super Project
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=...mp;start=0 |
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heimlich
VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016
Posts: 6621
Location: Houston, Texas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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That looks about right. You only have one thing plugged into the negative side of the coil?
_________________
www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| joey1320 wrote: |
| tenseventythree wrote: |
| kawfee wrote: |
| Show us a picture of your engine and coil. |
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Ditch the clear cap, those are crap.
Is that intake heater tube opened? Someone just hacked it off and left it?
Your distributor position is about 45 degrees clockwise from where mine is at. How did you go about setting your timing? |
I thought it looked weird. That's a PO thing. Same with the heater pipes.
_________________
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1969 Karmann Ghia
.......................................
1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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ShakeyVW
Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2013
Posts: 35
Location: Missouri
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:09 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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Check your dwell and timing. My daughter's '72 Super would die at stop signs; the little nib where the points ride against the distributor cam was badly worn.
That distributor makes me suspicious on many levels.
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-Kevin
1972 Yellow Super Beetle Convertible (daughter)
1976 Blue/White Super Beetle Convertible (wife)
...sometimes I get to drive one |
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Rex lucy
Samba Member
Joined: April 10, 2008
Posts: 497
Location: pleasant plains arkansas
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:39 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| how is the choke energized. don't see the normal wire. I would check timing, fuel adjustment and throttle positioner adjustment. |
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| Rex lucy wrote: |
| how is the choke energized. don't see the normal wire. I would check timing, fuel adjustment and throttle positioner adjustment. |
The choke is wired to the coil.
I'm gonna check the timing tomorrow. The dizzy always looked weird to me.
Although I haven't done anything to the distributor and this is a new issue.
As for the brake light, I did some troubleshooting.
When I connected my testing bulb to the wire on the right side and grounded it to the body, it lit up when I pressed on the brake.
So I have power going to the (new dual filament) bulb.
It seems like it's just not grounding.
Do I need a whole new assembly?
_________________
......................................
1969 Karmann Ghia
.......................................
1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:47 am Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| tenseventythree wrote: |
| Bama Dave wrote: |
Does it die when pressing the brake sitting still or coming to stop?
If sitting still, then its all a wiring issue. Even if it does that while moving, coming to a stop, it is likely a wiring issue. Have you checked the carb idle cutoff wire for security? |
it happens when coming to a stop. |
Can you clarify this please?
Would you try this the next chance you get....
After warming up the engine, get up to speed and make sure there is no one behind you. As you approach a safe spot to stop, keep your foot OFF the brake pedal. Pull up on your hand brake to slow your car down to stop. Try to stop as quickly as you normally would. If that causes the engine to die you know it has nothing to do with the brake lights/pedal. If it does die, try another run this time use the hand brake and slow down very gradually. Try not to slosh the fuel in the carb by slowing down over the whole length of a block or two. This tests if aggressive stopping is causing fuel to slosh around and flood the engine.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:43 am Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| tenseventythree wrote: |
| Bama Dave wrote: |
Does it die when pressing the brake sitting still or coming to stop?
If sitting still, then its all a wiring issue. Even if it does that while moving, coming to a stop, it is likely a wiring issue. Have you checked the carb idle cutoff wire for security? |
it happens when coming to a stop. |
Can you clarify this please?
Would you try this the next chance you get....
After warming up the engine, get up to speed and make sure there is no one behind you. As you approach a safe spot to stop, keep your foot OFF the brake pedal. Pull up on your hand brake to slow your car down to stop. Try to stop as quickly as you normally would. If that causes the engine to die you know it has nothing to do with the brake lights/pedal. If it does die, try another run this time use the hand brake and slow down very gradually. Try not to slosh the fuel in the carb by slowing down over the whole length of a block or two. This tests if aggressive stopping is causing fuel to slosh around and flood the engine. |
Update:
After lots of diagnostics it came down to a couple defective bulbs. Brake light works fine.
After doing some driving I narrowed down the conditions under which it would die. It isn't the stopping. It is the drop in rpm when I would let off of the accelerator. It's not everytime. I wish I had a tach because all I have to go by is sound. My guess is the carburetor. I haven't done a good cleaning/rebuild since I acquired it. Just carb cleaner squirts to rid the books and crannies of varnish build up.
_________________
......................................
1969 Karmann Ghia
.......................................
1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| ShakeyVW wrote: |
Check your dwell and timing. My daughter's '72 Super would die at stop signs; the little nib where the points ride against the distributor cam was badly worn.
That distributor makes me suspicious on many levels. |
At the TDC the rotor on the distributor points at the #cylinder. That accounts for the 45 degree rotation away from where it should be as the alignment mark on the distributor would need to be where the rotor is pointed.
The PO did the engine rebuild so there's no telling what was done to make this so.
_________________
......................................
1969 Karmann Ghia
.......................................
1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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ashman40
Samba Member
Joined: February 16, 2007
Posts: 15987
Location: North Florida, USA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 3:41 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| tenseventythree wrote: |
| At the TDC the rotor on the distributor points at the #cylinder. |
When the crank is at TDC for #1 cylinder AND the cam is at the end of the #1 cylinder compression stroke (both #1 intake and exhaust valves are BOTH closed) the distributor rotor must be pointing to the #1 plug wire. That is the "basic truth" so that the engine will run. If the notch on the rim of the distributor body is NOT near the tip of the rotor, you can loosen the clamp and rotate the distributor body until the mark lines up with the rotor. Now you can use the mark for future tune ups knowing that it indicates the #1 plug wire location.
If the distributor drive gear and the cog at the bottom of the distributor are installed correctly, a 009 distributor will have #1 plug wire in the 5-o'clock position around the distributor cap (as seen from the rear of the car). If the gear is not installed correctly, the #1 plug wire location would be in one of 12 possible positions (12-teeth of the gear).
| tenseventythree wrote: |
| That accounts for the 45 degree rotation away from where it should be as the alignment mark on the distributor would need to be where the rotor is pointed. |
I'm not sure what you are trying to describe here?
Three things I can think of that will change where the rotor will be pointing for #1 plug wire:
The drive gear/cog are installed incorrectly as mentioned above.
You are running aftermarket electronic points (electronic ignition module).
The dwell is drastically off.
It is most likely your distributor drive gear is installed incorrectly. Being off one tooth will result in a 30deg shift in where #1 plug wire is installed around the distributor cap.
Do this:
Rotate your crank until the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire on the distributor cap and the crank pulley TDC mark lines up with the case split.
Remove the nut that holds the distributor clamp to the case. Do not touch the nut that tightens the clamp around the body of the distributor.
Pull the distributor out of the case.
Look down the hole and you should see the distributor drive gear lined up like this:
If it doesn't look like this, your drive gear is installed/indexed wrong.
Moving the gear one tooth with rotate it by 30deg. If it is off by less than 30deg leave it as it is.
When you are done inspecting, reinstall the distributor making sure the bottom of the distributor engages the top of the drive gear. It only fits one way. Since you didn't loosen the clamp around the body it should go back exactly where it was without changing the timing.
_________________
AshMan40
---------------------------
'67 Beetle #1 {project car that never made it to the road }
'75 Beetle 1200LS (RHD Japan model) {junked due to frame rot}
'67 Beetle #2 {2019 project car - Wish me luck!} |
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tenseventythree
Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2009
Posts: 381
Location: El Paso TX
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:35 pm Post subject: Re: engine dies when brake is pressed |
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| ashman40 wrote: |
| tenseventythree wrote: |
| At the TDC the rotor on the distributor points at the #cylinder. |
When the crank is at TDC for #1 cylinder AND the cam is at the end of the #1 cylinder compression stroke (both #1 intake and exhaust valves are BOTH closed) the distributor rotor must be pointing to the #1 plug wire. That is the "basic truth" so that the engine will run. If the notch on the rim of the distributor body is NOT near the tip of the rotor, you can loosen the clamp and rotate the distributor body until the mark lines up with the rotor. Now you can use the mark for future tune ups knowing that it indicates the #1 plug wire location.
If the distributor drive gear and the cog at the bottom of the distributor are installed correctly, a 009 distributor will have #1 plug wire in the 5-o'clock position around the distributor cap (as seen from the rear of the car). If the gear is not installed correctly, the #1 plug wire location would be in one of 12 possible positions (12-teeth of the gear).
| tenseventythree wrote: |
| That accounts for the 45 degree rotation away from where it should be as the alignment mark on the distributor would need to be where the rotor is pointed. |
I'm not sure what you are trying to describe here?
Three things I can think of that will change where the rotor will be pointing for #1 plug wire:
The drive gear/cog are installed incorrectly as mentioned above.
You are running aftermarket electronic points (electronic ignition module).
The dwell is drastically off.
It is most likely your distributor drive gear is installed incorrectly. Being off one tooth will result in a 30deg shift in where #1 plug wire is installed around the distributor cap.
Do this:
Rotate your crank until the rotor is pointing to the #1 plug wire on the distributor cap and the crank pulley TDC mark lines up with the case split.
Remove the nut that holds the distributor clamp to the case. Do not touch the nut that tightens the clamp around the body of the distributor.
Pull the distributor out of the case.
Look down the hole and you should see the distributor drive gear lined up like this:
If it doesn't look like this, your drive gear is installed/indexed wrong.
Moving the gear one tooth with rotate it by 30deg. If it is off by less than 30deg leave it as it is.
When you are done inspecting, reinstall the distributor making sure the bottom of the distributor engages the top of the drive gear. It only fits one way. Since you didn't loosen the clamp around the body it should go back exactly where it was without changing the timing. |
I did this and it looks just like the photo. Apparently it's fine the way it is.
I rebuilt the carburetor and the volume screw was sticky. The O ring was replaced awhile back with one that didn't fit so well and it was falling apart.
The rebuild kit came with one so I replaced it along with all the other stuff.
_________________
......................................
1969 Karmann Ghia
.......................................
1967 Suzuki M15-2
2012 Triumph Bonneville T100 |
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