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Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus.
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williamM
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 8:36 pm    Post subject: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

How careful is the "tune" of the stock paper filter to a 2.0 ltr FI T4 that you couldn't build an adaptor and run some form of oil bath (T 181 comes to mind).?
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 9:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

Oil bath air filter and the MAF sensor sounds like a good mix.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

I'm not sure about MORE restrictive, but I accidentally drove a FI 2.0 without the paper element for burgers loaded with four dudes once, and I didn't notice a power difference.

I don't really see a problem with the AFM and an oil bath air filter, since no oil actually leaves the cleaner housing. My problem comes in the "work vs. reward" graph. Cool

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

If you are driving in the dusty deserts of the SW and feel you need an oil bath air cleaner then go for it. Remember that you must set up a custom PVC system that works as good or better than the original.
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:31 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

Just spritz the outer surface of the stock paper element with K&N 'filtercharger' oil & call it good. : )
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:52 am    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

Very Happy Thanks for the tips- The scenario is a 2ltr in a 73 bus converted to FI and the 181 air cleaner stuffed back by the pie plate with a snorkel going up the air vent above the battery--

Destine for a journey round the world ending in Australia. (Ben??) Yes--- so having a bit of a talk with the team- and carefully watched the travel log again-I'm pretty sure the oil bath is the way to go- As every one I've run has been a great air cleaner whether you clean them or not. (until the mud reaches the red line.)--

So thats the rest of the story.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

A single 1600 aircleaner isn't going to take long to fill up with a 2000 pulling that extra air through it and may start to get restrictive on the way out. Maybe double them up with a Tee like the dusty condition ones do, or explore government surplus sales for a something for a Hummer or other military equipment.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 3:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

buses pull air in thru side vents that are quite a bit off the ground. By their nature, unless you are following right behind another car in dead air, or driving in a dust storm it is unlikely your stock filter will clog as easily as a standard car or bug might simply because you are pulling in cleaner air. Make sure your foam filter, door filter etc are good. As for a snorkel to cross streams etc - you'll trash your crankshaft when ingested steam screws with the thrust shims. Ask me how I know.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

The only real advantage with an oil bath filter is if you have engine oil on hand you always have a filter element, that and they will not catch on fire in the event of a backfire. I have seen paper elements catch on fire. Other than that, they are messier and heavier and these days the oil you put in them probably costs more than the paper element.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

All really good points- I am looking at a pair of Baja racer type tri filters and an over sized 181 style filter. If I get both, I'll include them in the engine build thread I will be starting a bit later.-

Thanks again- for the suggestions- Bill
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:00 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

tootype2crazy wrote:
The only real advantage with an oil bath filter is if you have engine oil on hand you always have a filter element,. Other than that, they are messier and heavier and these days the oil you put in them probably costs more than the paper element.


All valid points, the reason for an oil bath is this rig will hopefully get thru Europe -the mid east, India ,Vietnam down the Malaysian chain and on to New Guinea- then home to Darwin. So the availability to even find a paper air cleaner on that journey maybe problematic. (these are my dreamings-) not necessarily the intended route- just a reversal of how I got home.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

search Madmax78 and Bursch's posts for their snorkel airfilter setup they used for a bus in dusty territory.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 7:34 am    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
I'm not sure about MORE restrictive, but I accidentally drove a FI 2.0 without the paper element for burgers loaded with four dudes once, and I didn't notice a power difference.

I don't really see a problem with the AFM and an oil bath air filter, since no oil actually leaves the cleaner housing. My problem comes in the "work vs. reward" graph. Cool

Robbie


Yes.....oil actually does leave oil bath filters. This has been known for ages. Depending on condition of engine and filter.....I have seen numerous vws type 3 and 4.... fail emissions.
Yes they were close to the knife edge in HC in the first place.....without a filter. Put the oil bath on.....and they got kicked over the edge. Put on a pleated paper or foam filter.....they passed with no other issues.

This is microscopic vapor. Its not wholsale sucking through of oil. .....although that WILL happen if an oil bath filter is not serviced in dusty conditions.....it loads up with dirt and the oil level rises to the point where there is no service gap between the oil pool and bottom of filter.

The oiling problem from oil vapor coming from the oil bath.....is widely known by those with D-jet engines. Its common to find the MPS oiled up inside from vapors. Yes.....it takes years of running for the backdraft of vapor after shutdown....to slowly condense enough to build up. And.....just about as much of it is fuel vapor.

Also the MPS on D-jet has a direct vacuum link to the manifold so it is a lot more susceptible to this issue than the AFM of L-jet because after shutdown any oil and fuel vapors in the intake system would have to make it back upstream past the throttle plate.

But the point is that oil vapor is pulled through from the oil bath filter.

The oil itself will not hurt the AFM.....but.....there is no such thing as an air filter that stops 100% of dust......most "modern" pleated filters ....will filter down to just a little below 5 microns......about 2-3 microns. Oil bath filters can filter down to slightly larger....about 5-6 microns..
Isolated particles this small....2.5 microns.....which is 0.0001".....maybe just a few every second in the intake air will not hurt the ENGINE. However.....over time if the hinge area of the flap in the AFM gets oiled up it attracts this dust. That fine dust with oil turns to a paste and it wears out the hinge area. This same oil and dust effect is also partly what wears out throttle shaft bushing area in the TB.

If you can avoid it.....I would not run oil bath with the AFM.

The oil bath system is more efficient in what total volume it can hold....dirt wise....before clogging and failure. But its a little less efficient in what it pulls out in smallest particle size....and that is dependent on what the particle is made of and how well it wets to the oil film and droplets.

The other worry is that if for some reason your intake tract has access to the wiper arm box which should be fairly sealed except for the shaft opening.....oil film and dust on the wiper arm tracks will destroy the wiper track as it forms an abrasive. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:05 am    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

I have seen this in the 3 FI systems I bought off the classified-- That pasty black shit was all over the inside of most of the AFM and in thick layers on the floor of each plenum chamber- whether it had the EGR spider web inside or not.

Whether these fuel systems were subject to oil (that pvc has to go somewhere) or just ran with out air cleaner as the system failed is open for debate.

Think my point is - that system is being inundated with crankcase vent pollution- whether or not it runs a paper filter .

Now will the oil bath make it worse- I have no doubt- but compared to getting a new paper element in a timely manner- or rolling an oil bath filter till the engine runs rich- is a toss up at best - You can "reup" -the oil bath any where in the world.

So- great discussion point can't wait to hear others chime in.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

I seem to recall finding a K&N element in a FI bus's filter a few years ago, not too hard to wash that out and re-oil. I wonder if they still make them?
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 11:25 am    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

williamM wrote:
I have seen this in the 3 FI systems I bought off the classified-- That pasty black shit was all over the inside of most of the AFM and in thick layers on the floor of each plenum chamber- whether it had the EGR spider web inside or not.

Whether these fuel systems were subject to oil (that pvc has to go somewhere) or just ran with out air cleaner as the system failed is open for debate.

Think my point is - that system is being inundated with crankcase vent pollution- whether or not it runs a paper filter .

Now will the oil bath make it worse- I have no doubt- but compared to getting a new paper element in a timely manner- or rolling an oil bath filter till the engine runs rich- is a toss up at best - You can "reup" -the oil bath any where in the world.

So- great discussion point can't wait to hear others chime in.


Yes....well put. The crankcase vent is also a factor in oiling things up. While the type 4 engined D-jet systems had probably the best oil separator PCV system I have seen....the PCV lines on those systems were only part of the problem. Probably a larger part of the problem than the oil bath air cleaner.....but this does not negate the effect of the air cleaner.

I can say this with some surety as I have seen early type 4 with no PCV and later type 4 with vented to air PCV (wrong set up)...that STILL ended up with some oiling of the MPS.

This is NOT saying that you should NOT use an oil bath air cleaner....just be aware that the issue exists. Other than an emissions issue with D-jet....it just means that about every 3-5 years you should use electronic parts leaner to clean out the MPS.

On a bus with L-jet...as long as you can be sure you are not oiling up the wiper track area by any means...you should be fine...but its just a mess.
Also on the L-jet system....your PCV inlet "should" be into the boot downstream of the AFM...right? This is not to say that after stopping (depending on condition of the PCV diaphragm if yours has one)....that you are not getting steaming oil vapors wafting upstream. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

williamM wrote:
I have seen this in the 3 FI systems I bought off the classified-- That pasty black shit was all over the inside of most of the AFM and in thick layers on the floor of each plenum chamber- whether it had the EGR spider web inside or not.

Whether these fuel systems were subject to oil (that pvc has to go somewhere) or just ran with out air cleaner as the system failed is open for debate.

Think my point is - that system is being inundated with crankcase vent pollution- whether or not it runs a paper filter .

Now will the oil bath make it worse- I have no doubt- but compared to getting a new paper element in a timely manner- or rolling an oil bath filter till the engine runs rich- is a toss up at best - You can "reup" -the oil bath any where in the world.

So- great discussion point can't wait to hear others chime in.


The problem you are talking of has largely disappeared as oils and fuels have improved and was always more of a problem with engines used in Type 4 cars verses buses. Cars didn't work their engines very hard and the intake tracks filled up with carbon as a result and their rings gummed up easier making for more blowby. On virtually every Type 4 car engine I have dealt with 20+ years back if you pulled and reinstalled the manifold for some reason then the engine wouldn't start as all the carbon built up in the manifold gasket area had fallen down and gotten into the intake port and held the intake valves open. It was also common for any Type 4 engine that had sat a while to lock up when you tried to crank it again because all of the carbon that had built up on the cylinder head would fall off and blocked the piston travel. These problems were less apt to occur on a bus engine which worked harder and burnt cleaner as a result. Modern oils and fuels just don't foul crankcase ventilation systems and intake to the extent oils once did either. Forty years ago I replaced or at least cleaned my PCV valves at every oil change as they would be clogged with black crud, but at this point in time I have PCV valves on some of my rigs that must be 20 years old that are nice and clean inside.
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
I seem to recall finding a K&N element in a FI bus's filter a few years ago, not too hard to wash that out and re-oil. I wonder if they still make them?


Exactly what I was going to suggest, and yes:
https://www.knfilters.com/air_filter/1976/volkswag...gKGK_D_BwE
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

Tram wrote:
busdaddy wrote:
I seem to recall finding a K&N element in a FI bus's filter a few years ago, not too hard to wash that out and re-oil. I wonder if they still make them?


Exactly what I was going to suggest, and yes:
https://www.knfilters.com/air_filter/1976/volkswag...gKGK_D_BwE


That particular filter fits the 1.6 ltr motor? If they have one for the 2. ltr FI air box, that would be great-
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PostPosted: Sat Aug 12, 2017 8:35 am    Post subject: Re: Putting a different air filter on T4 Bus. Reply with quote

williamM wrote:
Very Happy Thanks for the tips- The scenario is a 2ltr in a 73 bus converted to FI and the 181 air cleaner stuffed back by the pie plate with a snorkel going up the air vent above the battery--

Destine for a journey round the world ending in Australia. (Ben??) Yes--- so having a bit of a talk with the team- and carefully watched the travel log again-I'm pretty sure the oil bath is the way to go- As every one I've run has been a great air cleaner whether you clean them or not. (until the mud reaches the red line.)--

So thats the rest of the story.


Australian 1972~79 VW 17/18/2000 Type 2s in Australia and South Africa were equipped with special air filters for extremely dusty conditions. Only one model-year of Australian 1976~79 VW 2000 Type 2 was equipped with fuel injection; all of the others having twin Solex carburettors, as was the case for all model-years in South Africa.
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