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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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 Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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Mechanicals
1600 DP
New spark plugs (less than 30 miles old)
New fuel hoses and fuel filter - no hoses sitting on hot components
009 distributor with a 20+ year old Pertronix Ignition
Distributor static timed to 7.5 BTDC
Solex H30/31 Carb - rebuilt less than 30 miles ago
Valves set at .006" less than 30 miles ago
Well for some reason the VW gods are not being nice to me 
My '71 Super started hesitating and bogging down while accelerating about 3 weeks ago. The only change to the vehicle at that point was my desire to attach the EVAP system. I mounted a fitting onto the aftermarket air cleaner and ran all new hoses to to the tank and charcoal canister.
The day after doing so, I decided to take the bug out for a quick spin. Up to that point my engine had been great at starting/running. This morning that wasn't the case. It took a lot more cranks for the engine to fire and as I revved the engine, it started to backfire - it had never done that before. I let the engine run/idle, thinking it would clear itself out but it didn't. At that point I went ahead and disconnected the fitting at the air cleaner, realizing I had not accounted for the extra air now being pushed into the carburetor, and I didn't feel like messing with it at the time. I did not cap the fitting. Didn't (still don't) think it was an issue.
After removing the hose, but with the fitting still opened, I did my run and as the engine warmed up the car felt sluggish at higher rpms. Hoping it wasn't a big issue I kept driving and made a stop at the grocery store. After coming out of the store, it was a total pain getting the engine to start. Just kept cranking. It finally did after my constant feathering of the gas pedal. Luckily the store is really close to me so I was able to get the car home, once again noticing the lack of power. I got the car in the garage and capped the fitting and the car was parked.
That was three weeks ago and the car sat 'till last Sunday(a week ago) when I went to drive the car and although it started normally, it ran the same way as before with no power in the higher rpm's. It feels extremely sluggish. I did some research on my setup and decided to replace the 120 main jet for a 125. It still has no power on the higher rpm range - like none.
I went this morning and got a timing light and set the distributor to 30 BTDC with the throttle opened as far as it would go. Still running like crap.
I need to do a compression test. Going to get my tester tomorrow.
What am I missing?
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4026
Location: WA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:38 pm Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Check your vacuum at least 18 - or more in vacuum @ idle or plug up what you unplugged to hook up the evap. it sounds too lean. Maybe a cracked vacuum hose somewhere. |
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Sun Aug 13, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Starbucket wrote: |
| Check your vacuum at least 18 - or more in vacuum @ idle or plug up what you unplugged to hook up the evap. it sounds too lean. Maybe a cracked vacuum hose somewhere. |
I was thinking of a vacuum leak but I can't see how. All I did was take off the air cleaner top and I drilled a hole for the fitting, nothing else was touched.
I'll probably bring the smoke machine from work and check for leaks. I removed the carburetor top and there was plenty of fuel in the bowl, so I think fuel is good. I was going to attach a fuel pressure gauge to the line to check the psi.
I'm just stumped as to how it just got so shitty overnight. Now it has no power.
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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After getting back home from dinner last night, I went out and removed the #1 and #2 spark plugs and they are completely black - meaning I'm running extremely rich. I'm going to clean them after work and do a compression check and see what happens.
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Kelley
Samba Member
Joined: April 03, 2003
Posts: 1432
Location: "Die Sonneküste" Crystal Beach, FL
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| Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2017 10:41 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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Put everything back to the way you had it before you had running issues. Cap all unused vacuum nipples on carb with new rubber caps.
Recheck your valve clearance, and go from there. How old are the plug wires? Carb base tight on intake manifold? Spray for vac leaks around the carb and base while running? How about the manifold/head connection?
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74 rusto-custom type 1 Sedan - SOLD
ZRX1100c3, Mean Green - SOLD
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 7:47 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Kelley wrote: |
Put everything back to the way you had it before you had running issues. Cap all unused vacuum nipples on carb with new rubber caps.
Recheck your valve clearance, and go from there. How old are the plug wires? Carb base tight on intake manifold? Spray for vac leaks around the carb and base while running? How about the manifold/head connection? |
I put everything back as it was - won't idle and I can tell it's running rich. The valves were set less than 30 miles ago, so I would think they are still good.
After trying to start the engine I did some testing -
*Fuel pressure after pump - 2.8-3 psi while cranking.
*Checked spark at all four cylinders - beautiful bright white/blue spark. I removed the plugs one at a time and grounded them to the engine while I rotated the engine by hand.
*Retimed the engine at 7.5 BTDC - static.
And then I did a compression check - throttle completely opened on a cold engine 60-65 psi on cylinders #2 and #4. Easiest ones to get to with the type of tester I was using.
At that moment I stopped, went inside the house and had a beer. Decided to spend time with my son, since I was really upset at the moment.
After putting him to sleep I went back outside and hoping the cylinders were washed down by fuel, I cleaned out the spark plugs and by pressing the gas pedal down, I was able to get the engine started and I revved the engine as high I it would go. It sounded strong and healthy but it wouldn't idle and died.
I went ahead and got the engine started by pressing down on the gas pedal and again, revved it as high as it would go and it sounded strong and healthy. Tried to let it idle and it died again.
At that moment I decided to remove the carburetor. I have it at work now and will take it apart again and clean everything. Hoping it's a carb issue. I'm going to borrow a different compression tester and will do a dry/wet test tonight.
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Starbucket
Samba Member
Joined: April 30, 2007
Posts: 4026
Location: WA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:39 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Did you test the idle cut off to see if it clicked when you turn the key on? If it's burned out or not getting power it wont idle. |
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Starbucket wrote: |
| Did you test the idle cut off to see if it clicked when you turn the key on? If it's burned out or not getting power it wont idle. |
I did. Loud clicking noise heard and felt.
I'm going to remove it for the carburetor and will bench test it.
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Hatracks
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Joined: July 10, 2016
Posts: 664
Location: Renton, WA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| joey1320 wrote: |
| After getting back home from dinner last night, I went out and removed the #1 and #2 spark plugs and they are completely black - meaning I'm running extremely rich. I'm going to clean them after work and do a compression check and see what happens. |
Run the engine at idle while hot, remove one of the vacuum caps and create a leak, see if the engine increases RPM (rich) or falls flat on its face (lean).
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joey1320
Samba Member
Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Hatracks wrote: |
| joey1320 wrote: |
| After getting back home from dinner last night, I went out and removed the #1 and #2 spark plugs and they are completely black - meaning I'm running extremely rich. I'm going to clean them after work and do a compression check and see what happens. |
Run the engine at idle while hot, remove one of the vacuum caps and create a leak, see if the engine increases RPM (rich) or falls flat on its face (lean). |
Good advice. Will do 
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Hatracks
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2016
Posts: 664
Location: Renton, WA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| joey1320 wrote: |
| Hatracks wrote: |
| joey1320 wrote: |
| After getting back home from dinner last night, I went out and removed the #1 and #2 spark plugs and they are completely black - meaning I'm running extremely rich. I'm going to clean them after work and do a compression check and see what happens. |
Run the engine at idle while hot, remove one of the vacuum caps and create a leak, see if the engine increases RPM (rich) or falls flat on its face (lean). |
Good advice. Will do |
I didnt see you had pulled the carb. Did you have the distributor out in the time you were messing with things? I have noticed with the pertronix you can install it 180 out and it will cause backfiring etc.
Are you setting your timing from the different marks on the pulley or using a gun with advance?
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joey1320
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Joined: September 12, 2006
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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[quote="Hatracks"]
| joey1320 wrote: |
I didnt see you had pulled the carb. Did you have the distributor out in the time you were messing with things? I have noticed with the pertronix you can install it 180 out and it will cause backfiring etc.
Are you setting your timing from the different marks on the pulley or using a gun with advance? |
I didn't mess with the distributor internals. I had removed it before, over winter, but it was marked and put back the same as it came.
I have a degree pulley. I align it to 7.5 BTDC and set static time that way. I made sure the #1 cylinder valves were closed and routed the ignition wires accordingly. 1-4-3-2. The engine ran good(slight hesitation) up to about 3 weeks ago.
I do have a timing light and I tried setting the advance timing to 30 degrees BTDC but the engine was running rough and not revving properly. I don't have a tachometer so my plan was to rev the engine as high as it would go and set the timing that way. I did that on Sunday but again, the engine was running/revving rough, so I decided to go back to a known(good) static time last night. I will use the timing light once the engine is running better.
I borrowed an oil squirt gun. The plan is to squirt some oil in the cylinders and do a wet compression test. I also just got done going through the carburetor at work. All the orifices were cleaned and shot with shop air, including the two check valves. I removed the idle cut off and bench tested it - okay. I removed the choke and readjusted it. Working okay too.
I'm just hoping its not a compression issue 
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Kelley
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Joined: April 03, 2003
Posts: 1432
Location: "Die Sonneküste" Crystal Beach, FL
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:58 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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Check that pertronix unit. I had issues similar years ago. One of the magnets fell out of place, inside the 178 009 I was using at the time.
If you can't tell, you might try swapping points back in.
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74 rusto-custom type 1 Sedan - SOLD
ZRX1100c3, Mean Green - SOLD
| Growler wrote: |
| I hate people. Are you people? I hate you. |
Just trying to remember classic Samba quotes from the 'Days of Yore' |
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Hatracks
Samba Member
Joined: July 10, 2016
Posts: 664
Location: Renton, WA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:28 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Kelley wrote: |
Check that pertronix unit. I had issues similar years ago. One of the magnets fell out of place, inside the 178 009 I was using at the time.
If you can't tell, you might try swapping points back in. |
This or for shits and grins lift the distributor a tiny bit, rotate the rotor 180 degrees, and reseat, try to start.
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:35 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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The drive dog on a VW engine is offset so the distributor can only be installed one way. Impossible to just rotate it and reinstall 180° out.
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'69 Dune Buggy
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Hatracks
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Joined: July 10, 2016
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Location: Renton, WA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:38 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
| The drive dog on a VW engine is offset so the distributor can only be installed one way. Impossible to just rotate it and reinstall 180° out. |
Not with the Chinese pertronix units...i unfortunately learned from experience. You can seat it and it will lock in there in either position.
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joey1320
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Joined: September 12, 2006
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:40 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Kelley wrote: |
Check that pertronix unit. I had issues similar years ago. One of the magnets fell out of place, inside the 178 009 I was using at the time.
If you can't tell, you might try swapping points back in. |
I can do so for shits and giggles but I have a beautiful spark on all four spark plugs - timed properly as I rotate the engine. Maybe as it spins faster it starts acting up. I have a set of new points and condenser I can swap in.
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Hatracks
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Posts: 664
Location: Renton, WA
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| joey1320 wrote: |
| Kelley wrote: |
Check that pertronix unit. I had issues similar years ago. One of the magnets fell out of place, inside the 178 009 I was using at the time.
If you can't tell, you might try swapping points back in. |
I can do so for shits and giggles but I have a beautiful spark on all four spark plugs - timed properly as I rotate the engine. Maybe as it spins faster it starts acting up. I have a set of new points and condenser I can swap in. |
will it run if you keep squirting start fluid in it?
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joey1320
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Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:42 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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Idle solenoid tested okay.
Are these two mounted properly. One pointing towards the rear of the car - 65. Other pointing to pass side - 50.
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joey1320
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Joined: September 12, 2006
Posts: 2325
Location: Cleveland, OH
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| Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Engine running issues. Pertronix/009/H30-31 |
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| Hatracks wrote: |
| joey1320 wrote: |
| Kelley wrote: |
Check that pertronix unit. I had issues similar years ago. One of the magnets fell out of place, inside the 178 009 I was using at the time.
If you can't tell, you might try swapping points back in. |
I can do so for shits and giggles but I have a beautiful spark on all four spark plugs - timed properly as I rotate the engine. Maybe as it spins faster it starts acting up. I have a set of new points and condenser I can swap in. |
will it run if you keep squirting start fluid in it? |
Its idling horribly and adjusting the air bypass and mix screw didn't seem to do anything last night. I was able to start and rev the engine really high last night by pressing on the gas pedal while it cranked. It revved really good and felt/sounded strong/healthy. That's why I'm hoping it's not a compression issue.
To go back to the original issue, it has no top end power. The moment you shifted into second gear, it would bog down and barely go. The clutch is adjusted properly. Now it won't idle and takes long cranking while pressing the gas pedal in order to get it started.
Man I sometimes hate cars...
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