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68 squareback project
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:52 am    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

That is alot of money I don't care who you that price just for a set of pans?? The shop said that was 20hrs of shop time so you work out how much that is an hr and rethink there is no money in it. That's alot of money per hr
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:17 am    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

68 squareback project wrote:
That is alot of money I don't care who you that price just for a set of pans?? The shop said that was 20hrs of shop time so you work out how much that is an hr and rethink there is no money in it. That's alot of money per hr


buy a nice 140amp MIG and get to work?

I would question the sanity of anyone paying that much for rust repair on a 68 squareback. Unless it has sentimental value, just buy a better car to start with
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MonT3
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 4:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Maybe the price you were quoted was the ‘I don’t want to be bothered by this’ price. Seriously, I didn’t read from the start how you plan on delivering the pans. Is the car was going to get rolled down whole or just the pan? I’d charge you if I’m going to remove the shell from the pan. 20hrs gets used up fast so I can see $3500 for what you want. Did that total price quoted include a finish on the metal once done? Not busting your chops but you’re better off taking a portion of the quoted $4300 and get your pans, a MIG welder, a lease for a tank with Argon and get to practicing on the pan halves you cut off the tunnel. You’ll get some experience to tackle the rockers and the remainder of surprises you’ll find as there will be some. As Bobnotch mentioned and Clatter and I can attest, the pan and rocker matching up proper is a big deal during a pan replacement. If not, you’ll be making mods (or the shop will) to the mounting holes to line things up. So maybe you could spend a couple of hours a day, week, whatever and get them done and you learn something along the way. If not, pay for the service and get used to it as a shop may drag the project out, eat up $3500 of your quoted $4300 which may turn into $8700 (give or take) as new issues are found that need correction. If you can do it on your own, why not try it. Again, not trying to bust your chops on this.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 6:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

68 squareback project wrote:
That is alot of money I don't care who you that price just for a set of pans?? The shop said that was 20hrs of shop time so you work out how much that is an hr and rethink there is no money in it. That's alot of money per hr


$175/hr. is a pretty steep rate.

About half that is normal, at least in rural areas.
Here in Santa Cruz, most shops are around $80-$100.
(If anybody in Santa Cruz could/would do this job)

Remember that a shop owner does not just put that money in his pocket.
Not sure what the books look like on the small business you run,
But an auto shop has a line of people with their hand out a mile long.
Nevemind the tax man or the landlord or the insurance,
Think of the fire marshall and the solvent tank disposal fee and the electric bill.

Any shop where the owner is a nice guy like Nate will end up doing something else.
Having a lot of friends does not keep a guy in business.
(Sorry, Nate.. Wink I'm in the same boat FWIW, nice guys should go get a job working for someone ..).


If they could do it in 20 hours, they are magicians.
20 hours sounds like all they would charge you for, no matter if it took 20 or 200.

They could _maybe_ do the job in 20 hours if you delivered the bare pan to them,
And weren't particularly concerned about how it looked.

I have spent about 20 hours just last weekend Bondo-ing the welds smooth along the bottom where the pans attach,
And I'm not even half way done.
Yes, I have at least a few hundred hours' practice sanding Bondo..

Seriously,
Just nicking the long brake line could take that job underwater.

Bet you were planning on driving it in,
And then out, with fresh pans installed, correct?

If you were supplying a blasted bare floorpan on a rolling cart, then different story altogether.
20 hours would be safe then.

Which one is it?

Having fitted a pair of these, they need body-worked to get the fit/shape right,
The holes need moved over,
And a few test-fits to the body are needed, as the fit can be ambiguous at best.

What with moving the seat mounts, battery mounts, mount brackets..

You think you can do it in 20 hours?
Have at it!

SSoooooo...
Who's stepping up?
Anybody?

An Easy $3500 here for the taking!!

Or,
Wait,
You were thinking like $500 or $750, right?
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Nate M.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

I'm actually amused reading all the opinions and anecdotes regarding what a job "should cost". Clatter - "I'm sure Nate didn't switch careers because he was making just too damn much money." Laughing Where's the "rim-shot" button when you need one. Laughing

I had a great time owning my shop. No regrets. I always jokingly referred to it as, "A laundering outfit for my car habit!" Laughing It was a real eye-opener to the business world and how it works. Would I do it again?? Not in an official capacity. It will only ever be a "hobby" and I'll only do side work for $$$ from now on and only jobs that inspire me (as in wild, one-off stuff).

Time + materials can add-up pretty quickly in the car business. Acquiring some basic tools and skills can save you big. . .
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

When I finally hung up my IT consulting business,
I had a bunch of loyal customers for so many years they had become more than friends, they had actually become a sort of extended family.

What started with Christmas cards became this whole network of people who knew as much about me as anyone.

Doing IT, you actually end up knowing more than you really ever wanted to know about these people and their business.
(Specializing in accounting software didn't help, no doubt).

In the end, I was just far too nice of a guy to be a good small businessman.
I don't really consider it a personal fault, or even that my business was a 'failure' per se.
(Three company cars killed my corporate profits year in and out! Laughing )

I just really didn't feel like putting the screws to these nice people to make the kind of money I needed to make.

Referring my clients to a good friend, he is charging 6-8X ( Shocked ) as much as I was.
What I got in a light year, he is billing (Successfully I might add) per month, every month.

He isn't getting rich, he is just charging fair current market rates.

The service business cannot be subsidized my manufacturing efficiencies or an influx of cheap credit.

Now someone else has to pound the sales home,
And I just do the work.

I feel really bad for anyone who has to try to run a service business in the era of
"Just look it up on youtube and do it yourself".

We will slowly become a third world country when the third world mentality permeates our perception of cost and value.

Not to mention the skewing of perceptions created by living in a 'virtual world', where our reality is seen through a computer monitor...

Good luck to our OP.
Let us know how you do finding someone to do 1st world work for 3rd world pay.
He's out there somewhere..

Maybe the Magic of the Internet will somehow connect you.

Perhaps social media will come to the rescue?

Oh, wait, those are all mostly just people who spend all of their time on the keyboard as well...
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vwjetboat
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

.65vw wrote:
My 2 cents is it sounds like you do not have much time to work on the squareback even if it had solid floors and everything else already fixed.

Maybe sell the squareback as is and use that money plus the money you would have spent on metal work and get a running and driving squareback.

Seeing any project sit because you have no time can be depressing.

and it rots more ...a lot more.. and so goes the value..
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 10:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Wow.
With a paint job and pans and everything,
This guy was towing home after spending like $2795 or $3750, right?

I mean,
He did actually have to strip the car down before he towed it in and all..

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:33 am    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:

Just don't let him talk you into doing a big type 4 engine and 5 speed conversion. Wink


Here I am reading this quote, in a thread titled "Project is too big",
While taking a break from sanding floorpan seams.

Oh, the irony... Wink


That's the thing Steve. the OP didn't need to add more work to his "big project".
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Tue Aug 22, 2017 11:50 am    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
OK, I'm going to jump in and rant for a minute,
So y'all can just click "next"..

Those of you who -could- do a set of floor pans,
(insert sound bite 'several people shuffle out of the room')
_Would_ you do them for $3500?

You have done a set before?
Uh oh. Room just got empty.


Bet you the OP is planning on rolling a complete car into a shop,
Along with a pair of Gerson complete pans,
And saying "Here, install these"..

Remember, ladies, that there is about twenty feet of continuous stitch-weld involved in properly installing a set of Gerson pans.
We aren't talking about a Bug here. Look again.

And, using your lift (And shop overhead, insurance, etc.)
You are going to weld them in overhead?
Going to grind the welds, too?

I'd be entertaining the notion of pulling the body off just to make the welding easier.

So,
No.
No thank you.
There are easier ways of getting $3500.

I'm sure Nate didn't switch careers because he was making just too damn much money,
And,
So far Tram is the only dog in this race,
And he is likely booked way out (if he would even take the job).

So the OP needs to spend $1,000 on a good welder and cutting/grinding tools,
And give his own six to eight weekends hard labor to the project.

Or you are going to have to find someone who is living out of their car,
Or a someone who considers you a charity case.
Maybe a retired old mechanic who is looking for a project..

Nobody who is actually making a living wage in the US working on cars can afford to do that job for much less than $3500..


Typing "That's a lot of money" on a keyboard is far easier than installing a complete set of pans on an assembled type 3.


Yes, I could do floor pans.
Yeah, I could do them for 3500. But not at this time (see below for why).
Yes, I have installed type 3 floor pans, along with bug convertible and sedan pans. I've also added in floor sections to a Ghia. But no, I haven't installed Gerson pans.
No, I wouldn't overhead weld them. I'd weld them in from the inside, and seam seal the underside. And when you add in the rear kick panels, you're closer to 24 feet of welding. Then some stitch welds for the seat tracks.

I do agree that the OP could be better off doing it himself. Buy a welder, a GOOD grinder, some discs, and some Metabo blades for the grinder. It'll make life easier. It's not rocket science, but you don't want to be doing floor pans when it's 85*+ outside either.
Paying 3500 to install pans sounds expensive. To me that kind of money could be better spent in tools to do the job, and future parts (like rockers/heater channels).

I think Tram is booked a year out or more, so you'll find he's too busy. Myself, I have at least 4 projects going on, with at least 1 "long term" project getting some work done (most of the welding is complete, so body work is close to starting). Add in that my son has been working on several of his own projects here, taking away valuable space that I need for other work to happen. I should mention that I still need to do some work on my winter beater before winter actually gets here. Needless to say I'm busy.
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 10:42 am    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Bobnotch wrote:

I'd weld them in from the inside, and seam seal the underside.


So, you would tack them in from above, like bug pans..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just bury the whole bottom seams in goo?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I guess if we are all about cheap/easy/quick,
Why weld them in?
You could just use panel-bond.

Could also forego trimming them to butt flush;
Just leave them overlapping.
Like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At this point, however,
We are coming into "Just screw down a patch piece and glue it in" territory..

Why even do a set of complete pans if you are just going to be relying on seam-seal on the 'weather side' of things?

The bottom of the floorpan gets blasted pretty hard from stuff the front wheels kick up over time.
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Nate M.
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PostPosted: Wed Aug 23, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:

I'd weld them in from the inside, and seam seal the underside.


So, you would tack them in from above, like bug pans..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just bury the whole bottom seams in goo?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I guess if we are all about cheap/easy/quick,
Why weld them in?
You could just use panel-bond.

Could also forego trimming them to butt flush;
Just leave them overlapping.
Like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At this point, however,
We are coming into "Just screw down a patch piece and glue it in" territory..

Why even do a set of complete pans if you are just going to be relying on seam-seal on the 'weather side' of things?

The bottom of the floorpan gets blasted pretty hard from stuff the front wheels kick up over time.


Speaking strictly about Beetles here, tacking in new pans from the top (like the factory did) and then seam sealing BOTH sides (like the factory didn't) makes for a very strong and long lasting repair that is likely to outlast the owner. It's a completely legit repair. If you completely welded in the pans on your type3, I hope for your sake they never have to be replaced because you WILL regret it later and/or there will likely be DPO comments on a future thread on this very forum by the next guy. Wink Laughing

You really can't compare what you are doing on your car to ANYTHING done in a shop by a vendor. Have you considered a) how much time you have in your ride and b) what it would cost at around $100p/hr?? Hell $20p/hr you'd have a fortune invested. Laughing

IMHO half pans are shady. Anything less than what is pictured above and you'll have problems in no time. But how you did your pans is just over-kill, over-kill, over-kill. I would NEVER expect a shop to install them that way unless you specified and agreed on a huge price up front.

Also, pans almost exclusively rot from the inside out, not the other way around unless you live where they salt roads. The seams where they are welded in are the strongest, thickest part of the car.
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Bobnotch
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:47 am    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Nate M. wrote:
Clatter wrote:
Bobnotch wrote:

I'd weld them in from the inside, and seam seal the underside.


So, you would tack them in from above, like bug pans..
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Just bury the whole bottom seams in goo?
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I guess if we are all about cheap/easy/quick,
Why weld them in?
You could just use panel-bond.

Could also forego trimming them to butt flush;
Just leave them overlapping.
Like this:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


At this point, however,
We are coming into "Just screw down a patch piece and glue it in" territory..

Why even do a set of complete pans if you are just going to be relying on seam-seal on the 'weather side' of things?

The bottom of the floorpan gets blasted pretty hard from stuff the front wheels kick up over time.


Speaking strictly about Beetles here, tacking in new pans from the top (like the factory did) and then seam sealing BOTH sides (like the factory didn't) makes for a very strong and long lasting repair that is likely to outlast the owner. It's a completely legit repair. If you completely welded in the pans on your type3, I hope for your sake they never have to be replaced because you WILL regret it later and/or there will likely be DPO comments on a future thread on this very forum by the next guy. Wink Laughing

You really can't compare what you are doing on your car to ANYTHING done in a shop by a vendor. Have you considered a) how much time you have in your ride and b) what it would cost at around $100p/hr?? Hell $20p/hr you'd have a fortune invested. Laughing

IMHO half pans are shady. Anything less than what is pictured above and you'll have problems in no time. But how you did your pans is just over-kill, over-kill, over-kill. I would NEVER expect a shop to install them that way unless you specified and agreed on a huge price up front.

Also, pans almost exclusively rot from the inside out, not the other way around unless you live where they salt roads. The seams where they are welded in are the strongest, thickest part of the car.


Agreed.
But, I also fully weld t-3 pans in from the inside and just get seam sealed on both top and bottom sides. Bug pans I stitch weld, welding every other inch.
The way Steve is doing his entire car is way over kill. A shop would walk away laughing if he asked them to do it like that (and make money). This is why I asked if Steve had a room cleared out in his house just for it. He seems to have forgotten that these were cheap mass produced cars, that sold for around 3K when new. They were not "high end" cars, and they definitely were not perfect perfect when new (which is what Steve is over doing). They had seam sealer spattered over in places, gooped up in others, not tape lined off for perfect lines.

Nate, around here pans do rust from BOTH sides, depending on whether or not they got painted on both sides. Salt, rocks, and other road hazards will chip off even the best paint. I see 3 and 4 year old newer vehicles with rust every day. And if you go looking for something 10 years old or older, you're really looking for something with the least amount of rust as you can find. Vehicles that have been brought in from out of state command a higher price due to the lack of rust. We all know they do get some rust though (mostly where the seam sealer has fallen out).
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Tram wrote:
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Clatter
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PostPosted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 4:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=574362&highlight=gerson

^^ This guy did them the same way i did^^

You can say i "went way overboard" or it's "overkill",
I'm saying this is the correct way to do the job.

The above poster would obviously agree.

I'll even offer up that it's still not as good as it was new,
Because there is bound to be porosity, differences in hardness, warping, etc.
But it's almost as good.

It might be "better" or "normal" to just tack them in from above,
And just seam-seal the bottoms.
It is certainly easier.
Easier is cheaper.

Good enough?
Not in my opinion.

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.
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PostPosted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 11:10 am    Post subject: Re: Project is too big Reply with quote

Clatter wrote:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=574362&highlight=gerson

^^ This guy did them the same way i did^^

You can say i "went way overboard" or it's "overkill",
I'm saying this is the correct way to do the job.

The above poster would obviously agree.

I'll even offer up that it's still not as good as it was new,
Because there is bound to be porosity, differences in hardness, warping, etc.
But it's almost as good.

It might be "better" or "normal" to just tack them in from above,
And just seam-seal the bottoms.
It is certainly easier.
Easier is cheaper.

Good enough?
Not in my opinion.

Looks like we'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.


If you really studied his pics, he only welded the length of the pan from the underside. The rest was either spot welded, or welded from the top side. No where in his photos did he add seam sealer or metal 2 metal and finish sand any of it. That last part is responsible for saving 40+ hours of work. Remember time is money. Wink

When I did the 71 Notch pan, I tacked the pans in place from the top side, and welded them on the bottom side. You can even see the pics where I had it hanging on it's side. But, the body (what was left of it) was off the pan when it was done.
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Bob 65 Notch S with Sunroof
71 Notch ...aka Krunchy; build pics here;
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=249390 -been busy working
64 T-34 Ghia...aka Wolfie, under construction... http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=412120
Tram wrote:
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Tram wrote:
People keep confusing "restored" and "restroyed".
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