| Which is the best option for 1600 Bus with A/C? |
| Single port single carb |
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16% |
[ 1 ] |
| Dual ports twin carbs (EMPI 34 EPC) |
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50% |
[ 3 ] |
| Single port twin carbs |
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0% |
[ 0 ] |
| Other |
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33% |
[ 2 ] |
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| Total Votes : 6 |
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| Author |
Message |
vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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 Posted: Tue Aug 15, 2017 9:31 pm Post subject: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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Hi guys,
I have a bus and I rebuild engine to use A/C. It's always hot in Saigon (Vietnam)
My engine is 1600 single port and now use 31 PICT carb. But I feel It's a not enough strength to run. It's different when I turn off A/C, I can climb to mountain
Now I confusing between upgrade to dual ports twin carbs (EMPI 34 EPC). I already ordered this item but still need to buy dual ports head. But I read a lots topic said that single port even better and engine cooler than using dual ports twin carbs (It's really hot in here around 33-37 C degrees)
How about single port with twin carbs?
Which is the best choice for me?
Thank you |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 8:17 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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If your Bus has a 1600 are you putting in a 1700 as the title says or are you keeping 1600?
Just changing the carb may not give you enough HP to warrant replacing the carb. If you add new heads that breath better than you could pick up HP. If you can also increase your compression ratio you can pick up HP I would run dual port heads and Dual 36mm Dellorto's, 40mm Webers, ICT's or Kadrons with a header exhaust. Read up on John's Aircooled.net Bolt-on articles to get a few extra HP.
_________________
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:04 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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I think It's 1700 now with 85.5mm piston right?
I know that change to dual ports head & dual carbs will give some HP, but I confused that It's will make engine hotter and easy to cracking? I don't know
How's about single port head with dual carbs? Is it better or worse than dual ports dual carbs? |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:30 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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Stay stock 1600. Add an AMR 500 supercharger. Go flat belt and let the belt pull thye A/C and the super charger.
Gear the charger 2 - 1 and you will get between 5 & 6 psi which will increase power to 70-75 and 150ish Nm torque. Twice of what the EPC´s will bring you without having to swop heads.
(Make sure the engine yhas a good exhaust.
Just to make you get an idea of how to. but dont make the same mistakes as this guy with using crap cheap pulleys and idler.
T |
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yamaducci
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2010
Posts: 2335
Location: Mount Airy, Maryland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 9:44 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| vwt2vietnam wrote: |
I think It's 1700 now with 85.5mm piston right?
I know that change to dual ports head & dual carbs will give some HP, but I confused that It's will make engine hotter and easy to cracking? I don't know
How's about single port head with dual carbs? Is it better or worse than dual ports dual carbs? |
85.5mm Pistons are stock 1600.
Dual port engines are an improvement over single port. That is why VW went to dual port. If you do a proper conversion to dual port with all the cooling tin you will have a stronger engine that cools like a normal 1600 dual port as installed in a late Bus.
_________________
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My 2498 Turbo Re-Build Thread: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=5578697#5578697
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FreeBug
Samba Member
Joined: March 12, 2012
Posts: 4278
Location: deepest, darkest Switzerland
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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To convert to dual port heads, you will need some different head studs, and cylinder cover tins. Twin-ports also generally have dog-house, 8 mm studs, dual relief in the case and bigger pumps, passages, etc..
If everything is staying stock, you only gain 3 hp going from single to dual port on the 1600, bringing you to 50 hp DIN. Not worth it.
If you can go with boost, but if your on a tighter budget or have limited access to good machining and tuning and parts, just go with more cc's. 1835 TW would be a good start, some PORTED heads, an exhaust, a mild cam, and THEN your twin-carbs can REALLY be put to work, making power.
What is parts and labour availability there? Access to a dyno? I wouldn't go boosted without access to a dyno, or a big "experimenting" budget.
Mr. Alstrup seems to have caught the boost-bug! Time to start marketing a sleek compressor kit?    |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Aug 16, 2017 3:35 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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In a 1970 beetle, not a bus: my 1835 DP engine with single Weber carb and stock cam had plenty of power to run its dealer-added AC system. I have external oil cooler instead of a stock unit, and remember a bus not only weighs more than a beetle, its aerodynamic profile is worse.
Modern compressors draw less hp.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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Alstrup
Samba Member
Joined: July 12, 2007
Posts: 7214
Location: Videbaek Denmark
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| Posted: Thu Aug 17, 2017 10:48 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| FreeBug wrote: |
To convert to dual port heads, you will need some different head studs, and cylinder cover tins. Twin-ports also generally have dog-house, 8 mm studs, dual relief in the case and bigger pumps, passages, etc..
If everything is staying stock, you only gain 3 hp going from single to dual port on the 1600, bringing you to 50 hp DIN. Not worth it.
If you can go with boost, but if your on a tighter budget or have limited access to good machining and tuning and parts, just go with more cc's. 1835 TW would be a good start, some PORTED heads, an exhaust, a mild cam, and THEN your twin-carbs can REALLY be put to work, making power.
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Yes, but only because he has already ordered them. Otherwise a modified 34 mm Solex on a CB/Empi intake does the job well.
| FreeBug wrote: |
What is parts and labour availability there? Access to a dyno? I wouldn't go boosted without access to a dyno, or a big "experimenting" budget.
Mr. Alstrup seems to have caught the boost-bug! Time to start marketing a sleek compressor kit? |
I hope I´ll survive  With the parts available off of the shelf today it is easy to build a supercharged stockish engine. If you mix the tried and true draw through with say a CB Black box, Megajolt, or even the ignition side out of a MSII system you can come a long way for little money. The experimental budget doesnt have to be more than normal if you do your homework. The only supercharged engine that has ever went south on me was a customer that thought he knew better how to run his ignition timing, - resulting in a good deal of premature detonation and 4 cracked pistons, destroyed cylinders and rod bearings. THEN he finally understood what I talking about.
It could be really fun to make a kit if time allowed.
T |
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:48 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| Alstrup wrote: |
Stay stock 1600. Add an AMR 500 supercharger. Go flat belt and let the belt pull thye A/C and the super charger.
Gear the charger 2 - 1 and you will get between 5 & 6 psi which will increase power to 70-75 and 150ish Nm torque. Twice of what the EPC´s will bring you without having to swop heads.
(Make sure the engine yhas a good exhaust.
Just to make you get an idea of how to. but dont make the same mistakes as this guy with using crap cheap pulleys and idler.
T |
I have no idea about supercharger and no one in Vietnam know how to do it. Is it difficult and expensive?
I'll upload my engine photos to you guys to know
I already received Empi dual carbs kit and dual ports head, need a few days to install
My exhaust was rebuilt base on stock exhaust, i'm not sure It's good enough |
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| Cusser wrote: |
In a 1970 beetle, not a bus: my 1835 DP engine with single Weber carb and stock cam had plenty of power to run its dealer-added AC system. I have external oil cooler instead of a stock unit, and remember a bus not only weighs more than a beetle, its aerodynamic profile is worse.
Modern compressors draw less hp. |
How's your external oil cooler? Could you pls tell me?
I used modern compressors and modern dynamo
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 9:17 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| vwt2vietnam wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
In a 1970 beetle, not a bus: my 1835 DP engine with single Weber carb and stock cam had plenty of power to run its dealer-added AC system. I have external oil cooler instead of a stock unit, and remember a bus not only weighs more than a beetle, its aerodynamic profile is worse.
Modern compressors draw less hp. |
How's your external oil cooler? Could you pls tell me?
I used modern compressors and modern dynamo |
My dealer-added 1970 DPD system used a Tecumseh compressor, not so good. I use an 8-pass external oil cooler mounted over the opening of the fan shroud, similar to this kit http://www.jbugs.com/product/9223.html but I use a CB Performance Maxi2 oil pump/filter
The cooler has worked fine for me for 41 years, no matter what others say about these !!!
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:33 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| vwt2vietnam wrote: |
| Cusser wrote: |
In a 1970 beetle, not a bus: my 1835 DP engine with single Weber carb and stock cam had plenty of power to run its dealer-added AC system. I have external oil cooler instead of a stock unit, and remember a bus not only weighs more than a beetle, its aerodynamic profile is worse.
Modern compressors draw less hp. |
How's your external oil cooler? Could you pls tell me?
I used modern compressors and modern dynamo |
My dealer-added 1970 DPD system used a Tecumseh compressor, not so good. I use an 8-pass external oil cooler mounted over the opening of the fan shroud, similar to this kit http://www.jbugs.com/product/9223.html but I use a CB Performance Maxi2 oil pump/filter
The cooler has worked fine for me for 41 years, no matter what others say about these !!! |
So remove the dog-house and install this one right?
First I'll try to convert to dual carbs dual ports, and then I'll try each solution to improve performance |
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Cusser
Samba Member
Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31362
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 7:03 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| vwt2vietnam wrote: |
| So remove the dog-house and install this one right? |
No - I'm NOT saying that at all. I did this on my own engine which had non-doghouse shroud/oil cooler back in the mid 1970s, when doghouse stuff was dealer only and expensive, plus I wanted to add an oil filter (I later ditched the filter part of the kit and went to Maxi2).
Doghouse style is good cooling; I'm not experienced having a heavier and poorer aerodynamic bus where you'll have more heat to shed. Note that 1971 bus in USA had 1600 DP engine and did have doghouse cooling.
_________________
1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:04 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| there are smaller compressiors than that thee days, alot smaller. I have a nos sanderson/sanyko 506 under my bench for mine, but it may not get used. also I would use the empi hpmx 40 duel kit and a big motor. 82~84 stroke. 92 thick walls.good 40x35 heads, like lost pan of chetos. fk7 cam or smaller 9.0 cr. .040"(1mm) piston to head clearance. 30 mm oil pump.slotted lifter bores, added oil galleys, 5-20 syn oil. total seal rings,1.34 rockers. coated bearings&coated gears.ceramic coated piston tops,seramic coated ex ports, ceramic coated chambers and valve faces. dfl coated pin bores,cb lightweight pins.single hd springs.cb hd aluminum pushrods.lashcaps, dfl coated rockers,lash caps&bushings. good cooling system.cb magna spark dist tuned for the motor. either empi billet 31mm lifters with hole or cb light weights. camshield cam lube and additive in first&second oil/filter change only.adjust valves the preload method, break it in properly tune it right . Change oil&filter again.(third oil/filter change,)and load full of people and go have fun. change oil& filter again in a week. |
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| mark tucker wrote: |
| there are smaller compressiors than that thee days, alot smaller. I have a nos sanderson/sanyko 506 under my bench for mine, but it may not get used. also I would use the empi hpmx 40 duel kit and a big motor. 82~84 stroke. 92 thick walls.good 40x35 heads, like lost pan of chetos. fk7 cam or smaller 9.0 cr. .040"(1mm) piston to head clearance. 30 mm oil pump.slotted lifter bores, added oil galleys, 5-20 syn oil. total seal rings,1.34 rockers. coated bearings&coated gears.ceramic coated piston tops,seramic coated ex ports, ceramic coated chambers and valve faces. dfl coated pin bores,cb lightweight pins.single hd springs.cb hd aluminum pushrods.lashcaps, dfl coated rockers,lash caps&bushings. good cooling system.cb magna spark dist tuned for the motor. either empi billet 31mm lifters with hole or cb light weights. camshield cam lube and additive in first&second oil/filter change only.adjust valves the preload method, break it in properly tune it right . Change oil&filter again.(third oil/filter change,)and load full of people and go have fun. change oil& filter again in a week. |
Seem like a lot of money for your engine? |
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:43 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| vwt2vietnam wrote: |
| So remove the dog-house and install this one right? |
No - I'm NOT saying that at all. I did this on my own engine which had non-doghouse shroud/oil cooler back in the mid 1970s, when doghouse stuff was dealer only and expensive, plus I wanted to add an oil filter (I later ditched the filter part of the kit and went to Maxi2).
Doghouse style is good cooling; I'm not experienced having a heavier and poorer aerodynamic bus where you'll have more heat to shed. Note that 1971 bus in USA had 1600 DP engine and did have doghouse cooling. |
Oh understood. I'll update after install dual carbs |
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 6:40 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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Hi,
This is my engine (1600 single port) before convert to dual carbs dual ports
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gt1953
Samba Member
Joined: May 08, 2002
Posts: 13848
Location: White Mountains Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:29 am Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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vwt2vietnam
What running a altenator and generator??? which does what??
_________________
Volkswagen: We tune what we drive.
Numbers Matching VW's are getting harder to find. Source out the most Stock vehicle and keep that way. You will be glad you did.
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vwt2vietnam
Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012
Posts: 33
Location: Vietnam
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:40 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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| gt1953 wrote: |
vwt2vietnam
What running a altenator and generator??? which does what?? |
The original altenator's not create enough electricity for my bus so I installed a modern one.
The old one only use to make fan run. The new one create electricity for my bus
Last edited by vwt2vietnam on Mon Aug 28, 2017 10:02 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 03, 2002
Posts: 12785
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 7:42 pm Post subject: Re: VW bus 1700 single port with A/C need more strength |
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I'd wager that fan is turning much slower than it's designed to due to belt slippage. It only has 1/3 the stock wrap around the pulley.
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