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V8Square
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 90
Location: ILLINOIS
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 Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:55 am Post subject: Rust |
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| I have found a rust dissolver that really works. Here is a picture, before and after |
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67rustavenger 
Samba Member
Joined: February 24, 2015
Posts: 9770
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 9:23 am Post subject: Re: Rust |
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What did you use? Looks pretty good.
_________________
I have learned over the years.
Cheap parts are gonna disappoint you.
Buy Once, Cry Once!
There's never enough time to do it right the first time. But there's always enough time to do it thrice.
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Rust |
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There are quite a handful that work that well.
Is this a new one? Let us know what it is please. Always room for a new product.
Thanks! Ray |
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V8Square
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 90
Location: ILLINOIS
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| Posted: Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Rust |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
There are quite a handful that work that well.
Is this a new one? Let us know what it is please. Always room for a new product.
Thanks! Ray |
Hi Ray. This stuff is called 3X Rust Dissolver from Speedway Motors. It is $13.99 per quart and worth every penny |
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c21darrel
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Joined: January 22, 2009
Posts: 8211
Location: San Dimas
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Rust |
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Beat me to it! 
That should actually be a pretty good mixture....of course there is no telling what else is in the mixture. Thats what I hate about the new SDS sheets compared to the old MSDS sheets.
Now manufacturers are only required to list the "hazardous" ingredients instead of the main constituent ingredients.
The nice thing about hydrochloric/muriatic acid is that yes...it eats rust down to bare metal.
I have been using it for this purpose for decades. Most machine shops have a barrel of hydrochloric that they suspend cast iron heads and parts in so they come out clean bare metal.
the problem with using something like straight hydrochloric/muriatic acid...is that it causes a bit of hydrogen belittlement to surfaces so they flash rust almost instantly...which can actually be a help if you are going to then use a rust converter and then paint....but can be a problem on something like a crank or machined surfaces.
Having an acid solution that is 10-20% like this may be slower but is simpler to control...but depletes quicker (the acid gets depleted as it reacts)...so you use a lot more product.
$13.99 per quart is kind of high though....thats $52 a gallon.
You can buy hydrochloric/muriatic acid anywhere for about $8-12 a gallon and mix your own stuff.
But....shop around. In the last few years places like Lowes and Home Depot have substituted diluted muriatic acid for the formerly 29-31% acid. Most of it is 14-15% acid.
Whether this is a safety/insurance/handling/shipping issue....dont know. Nut its also a money maker. They didn't lower the price. This has actually caused a big headache for those who use the acid to lower swimming pool PH.
The test kit tells you how much acid to add....but assumes its normal 31%...so they end up adding less and cannot balance PH. Ray |
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V8Square
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 90
Location: ILLINOIS
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Rust |
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| To each is own. I prefer to spend $13.99 for a quart of something that is already mixed. When I am done with that quart, I am done. period. If I mix up a gallon, and only use 1 guarts, what do I do with the other 2 quarts? As I said, this goes a long way. But, again, this is just my opinion. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 3:50 pm Post subject: Re: Rust |
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| V8Square wrote: |
| To each is own. I prefer to spend $13.99 for a quart of something that is already mixed. When I am done with that quart, I am done. period. If I mix up a gallon, and only use 1 guarts, what do I do with the other 2 quarts? As I said, this goes a long way. But, again, this is just my opinion. |
You can also buy muriatic acid in quarts and pints....for the same cheap cost.
So just mix a quart if thats all you need. If you have left over.....just keep it .....or pour it in a bucket of water and add a handful of baking,sida. When it stops fizzing just pour it down the drain.
At $14 quart....for the volume of rust remover I go through on chassis and suspension parts.....I would be about $1000 out right now. Ray |
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V8Square
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 90
Location: ILLINOIS
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 4:44 pm Post subject: Re: Rust |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| V8Square wrote: |
| To each is own. I prefer to spend $13.99 for a quart of something that is already mixed. When I am done with that quart, I am done. period. If I mix up a gallon, and only use 1 guarts, what do I do with the other 2 quarts? As I said, this goes a long way. But, again, this is just my opinion. |
You can also buy muriatic acid in quarts and pints....for the same cheap cost.
So just mix a quart if thats all you need. If you have left over.....just keep it .....or pour it in a bucket of water and add a handful of baking,sida. When it stops fizzing just pour it down the drain.
At $14 quart....for the volume of rust remover I go through on chassis and suspension parts.....I would be about $1000 out right now. Ray |
WOW. You must have some heavy duty rust, or big frame and suspension. As I said before, I have a triangulated, 4-bar, narrowed 9" Ford rear end with drum brakes. Front suspension is Mustang II with tubular control arms. I did the four arms, 4 bars, rear axle housing and both rear drums on a quart. I plan on 1 quart for the chassis. We will see this week. Even if the chassis takes 2 quarts, that will be $42.00 I will keep you posted. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Aug 20, 2017 5:20 pm Post subject: Re: Rust |
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| V8Square wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| V8Square wrote: |
| To each is own. I prefer to spend $13.99 for a quart of something that is already mixed. When I am done with that quart, I am done. period. If I mix up a gallon, and only use 1 guarts, what do I do with the other 2 quarts? As I said, this goes a long way. But, again, this is just my opinion. |
You can also buy muriatic acid in quarts and pints....for the same cheap cost.
So just mix a quart if thats all you need. If you have left over.....just keep it .....or pour it in a bucket of water and add a handful of baking,sida. When it stops fizzing just pour it down the drain.
At $14 quart....for the volume of rust remover I go through on chassis and suspension parts.....I would be about $1000 out right now. Ray |
WOW. You must have some heavy duty rust, or big frame and suspension. As I said before, I have a triangulated, 4-bar, narrowed 9" Ford rear end with drum brakes. Front suspension is Mustang II with tubular control arms. I did the four arms, 4 bars, rear axle housing and both rear drums on a quart. I plan on 1 quart for the chassis. We will see this week. Even if the chassis takes 2 quarts, that will be $42.00 I will keep you posted. |
Every VW has this much chassis
I'm working on a 412....so its not a little car....and its a unibody. Section by section its getting totally stripped. Blasting is not a good option on unibidy cars like this.
So as undercoating gets stripped away.....grinding and wire wheeling......which takes a while.....I use rust remover to get in the deep spots and seams. Then neutralize.....then surface rust....then rust converter....then primer....then recoat.
Plus....most suspension components need full stripping and rust removal. Its easier to do the whole part. Playing with removing rust patches is kind of waste. Strip it mechanically and chemically....then rust remover (usually diluted muriatic acid...which takes minutes).....then rinse, neutralize, flash rust, convert and paint.
I probably have about 15 gallons of chemicals in it,so far.... about 4 of muriatic acid and about 11 of Jasco metal prep rust converter. Ray |
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V8Square
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 90
Location: ILLINOIS
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Rust |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| V8Square wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| V8Square wrote: |
| To each is own. I prefer to spend $13.99 for a quart of something that is already mixed. When I am done with that quart, I am done. period. If I mix up a gallon, and only use 1 guarts, what do I do with the other 2 quarts? As I said, this goes a long way. But, again, this is just my opinion. |
You can also buy muriatic acid in quarts and pints....for the same cheap cost.
So just mix a quart if thats all you need. If you have left over.....just keep it .....or pour it in a bucket of water and add a handful of baking,sida. When it stops fizzing just pour it down the drain.
At $14 quart....for the volume of rust remover I go through on chassis and suspension parts.....I would be about $1000 out right now. Ray |
WOW. You must have some heavy duty rust, or big frame and suspension. As I said before, I have a triangulated, 4-bar, narrowed 9" Ford rear end with drum brakes. Front suspension is Mustang II with tubular control arms. I did the four arms, 4 bars, rear axle housing and both rear drums on a quart. I plan on 1 quart for the chassis. We will see this week. Even if the chassis takes 2 quarts, that will be $42.00 I will keep you posted. |
Every VW has this much chassis
I'm working on a 412....so its not a little car....and its a unibody. Section by section its getting totally stripped. Blasting is not a good option on unibidy cars like this.
So as undercoating gets stripped away.....grinding and wire wheeling......which takes a while.....I use rust remover to get in the deep spots and seams. Then neutralize.....then surface rust....then rust converter....then primer....then recoat.
Plus....most suspension components need full stripping and rust removal. Its easier to do the whole part. Playing with removing rust patches is kind of waste. Strip it mechanically and chemically....then rust remover (usually diluted muriatic acid...which takes minutes).....then rinse, neutralize, flash rust, convert and paint.
I probably have about 15 gallons of chemicals in it,so far.... about 4 of muriatic acid and about 11 of Jasco metal prep rust converter. Ray |
Ray. As I said then, you must have some heavy duty rust. Yes, a 412, came from the factory, with a rubberized undercoating. Then, many dealers, re-undercoated, which was totally not needed, Also, depending on the dealer, the individual went nuts with the undercoating gun. I started working for a VW dealer, in St Louis, when I came home from Germany in July 1969. What used to really, P me off, when I, as a VW mechanic, would have to install air conditioning, or gas heater, in a VW. There were, at that that time, not many VW's that arrived in the port with a/c. Some got installed at the port, while the majority of them got installed at the dealership. There were two companies that made air conditioners for VW's that our dealership used. One was called DPD and I can't remember the other one, although it will come to me. I then "graduated" to a Porsche/Audi dealership in 1973. Audi's, at the time, had 3 models. The Super 90, Fox and 100LS. The Fox and 100LS were both wired for a/c so all you had to do was add (plug in) an additional wiring harness, run bracketry, evaporator and condenser/hoses and you were good to go. We had teams that installed them after normal shop hours. We were paid $75, for the 100LS and $50 for the Fox. This both had to be split between 2 guys. Not bad money, back then, as you could do it in about an hour and a half. Considering that back in 1973 we as union mechanics, were making less than $5 per hour. Then I asked why no one installed a/c in 911 or 914 Porsches. They said it was way too hard, so it was subletted out to an "butcher" shop. And I do mean that, they "butchered" cars. I approached the owner of the dealer and asked if I could install one, by myself. He said sure. Well, the 1st 911 took me three evenings to do. Then I learned some shortcuts. I was being paid $150 per unit installed. I then got it down to two evenings, then finally one evening. An evening was about 5 hours. I then told the owner I needed $200 per install and he agreed, as the jobs were flawless. The 914 was a little harder, but still, I could do them in one evening. Now, all of a sudden, some of my co-workers wanted to become my "partner" on the installs. I said, no thanks, I don't need help. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 8:50 am Post subject: Re: Rust |
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| V8Square wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| V8Square wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| V8Square wrote: |
| To each is own. I prefer to spend $13.99 for a quart of something that is already mixed. When I am done with that quart, I am done. period. If I mix up a gallon, and only use 1 guarts, what do I do with the other 2 quarts? As I said, this goes a long way. But, again, this is just my opinion. |
You can also buy muriatic acid in quarts and pints....for the same cheap cost.
So just mix a quart if thats all you need. If you have left over.....just keep it .....or pour it in a bucket of water and add a handful of baking,sida. When it stops fizzing just pour it down the drain.
At $14 quart....for the volume of rust remover I go through on chassis and suspension parts.....I would be about $1000 out right now. Ray |
WOW. You must have some heavy duty rust, or big frame and suspension. As I said before, I have a triangulated, 4-bar, narrowed 9" Ford rear end with drum brakes. Front suspension is Mustang II with tubular control arms. I did the four arms, 4 bars, rear axle housing and both rear drums on a quart. I plan on 1 quart for the chassis. We will see this week. Even if the chassis takes 2 quarts, that will be $42.00 I will keep you posted. |
Every VW has this much chassis
I'm working on a 412....so its not a little car....and its a unibody. Section by section its getting totally stripped. Blasting is not a good option on unibidy cars like this.
So as undercoating gets stripped away.....grinding and wire wheeling......which takes a while.....I use rust remover to get in the deep spots and seams. Then neutralize.....then surface rust....then rust converter....then primer....then recoat.
Plus....most suspension components need full stripping and rust removal. Its easier to do the whole part. Playing with removing rust patches is kind of waste. Strip it mechanically and chemically....then rust remover (usually diluted muriatic acid...which takes minutes).....then rinse, neutralize, flash rust, convert and paint.
I probably have about 15 gallons of chemicals in it,so far.... about 4 of muriatic acid and about 11 of Jasco metal prep rust converter. Ray |
Ray. As I said then, you must have some heavy duty rust. Yes, a 412, came from the factory, with a rubberized undercoating. Then, many dealers, re-undercoated, which was totally not needed, Also, depending on the dealer, the individual went nuts with the undercoating gun. I started working for a VW dealer, in St Louis, when I came home from Germany in July 1969. What used to really, P me off, when I, as a VW mechanic, would have to install air conditioning, or gas heater, in a VW. There were, at that that time, not many VW's that arrived in the port with a/c. Some got installed at the port, while the majority of them got installed at the dealership. There were two companies that made air conditioners for VW's that our dealership used. One was called DPD and I can't remember the other one, although it will come to me. I then "graduated" to a Porsche/Audi dealership in 1973. Audi's, at the time, had 3 models. The Super 90, Fox and 100LS. The Fox and 100LS were both wired for a/c so all you had to do was add (plug in) an additional wiring harness, run bracketry, evaporator and condenser/hoses and you were good to go. We had teams that installed them after normal shop hours. We were paid $75, for the 100LS and $50 for the Fox. This both had to be split between 2 guys. Not bad money, back then, as you could do it in about an hour and a half. Considering that back in 1973 we as union mechanics, were making less than $5 per hour. Then I asked why no one installed a/c in 911 or 914 Porsches. They said it was way too hard, so it was subletted out to an "butcher" shop. And I do mean that, they "butchered" cars. I approached the owner of the dealer and asked if I could install one, by myself. He said sure. Well, the 1st 911 took me three evenings to do. Then I learned some shortcuts. I was being paid $150 per unit installed. I then got it down to two evenings, then finally one evening. An evening was about 5 hours. I then told the owner I needed $200 per install and he agreed, as the jobs were flawless. The 914 was a little harder, but still, I could do them in one evening. Now, all of a sudden, some of my co-workers wanted to become my "partner" on the installs. I said, no thanks, I don't need help. |
man I know where you are coming from. The dealer installed AC was pure butchery...especially on type 3 and 4.
No actually ...411 and 412 never had a rubberized undercoating. Not one drop of it. That would be a breeze to remove. Yes....too many dealers actually re-undercoated in northern areas...which actually seals in moisture.
The 411 and 412 came with a full....hard as a rock ....Wurth or 3M type "stone-guard" undercoating from the factory...from end to end and under all fenders and under all of the bolt on suspension components.
Thats the problem. The stone guard is beautifully intact to this day.
But....in corner and crevice areas...it can be as much as 1/4" thick. Its in these areas and in flex areas like shock towers...it gets spiderweb cracks in it with age. Water permeates...and creates surface rust.
Unless the car has been in salty ares or sat in humid areas for a long time....you do not generally get rust throughs from this...but you get wide surface rust patches...under the undercoating. You cannot leave these untreated. They will eventually rust through.
Add to this that there are wide expanse areas that are high up like above the gas tank and above the rear cross beam that had nothing but primer on them. You can get wide areas of basic surface rust here.
You cannot readily media blast or sandblast the thick hard undercoating areas on this car without warping the sheet metal....or blasting and waiting so slowly that it costs $$$$.
Add to this the numerous inside areas that were filled with the dreaded FOAM. Those have to be chiseled out and all have wide expanses of surface rust.
Its a slow process and takes lots of work and chemical. Its not like it has "serious rust" like you worry about in a bus....but it just has a LOT of rust that must be addressed. Ray |
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V8Square
Samba Member
Joined: June 29, 2009
Posts: 90
Location: ILLINOIS
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| Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2017 11:07 am Post subject: Re: Rust |
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Excuse my incorrect terminology on the undercoat. I knew that it DID have a factory rock/guard undercoat. I was actually at the VW factory in Wolfsburg, going to school, before I left to come home in July 1969. And as far as the dealer a/c installs on Type 3 and Type 4 being as you called, butchery, I somewhat resent that. I took a lot of pride in my work, as I do today, and I am 72 years "young" and don't intend to stop now. Granted, there were/are some butchers out there, and I sure as hell am not one of them.
The Type 4, in many true VW mechanic's eyes, was the biggest abortion that VW ever produced, as The "Thing". |
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