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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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 Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:12 pm Post subject: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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I examined a set once and returned them. You'd think I would've learned my lesson....
Purchased a set of AA 5.325" VW journal I-beams for a good price. I pulled off the rod caps and discovered many little high spots from impact on the big end mating surfaces. I spent an hour dressing them up with a small file. After a good wipe down, and bearing install, I wet torqued the big ends down to 25 lbs-in and ran my dial bore gauge through. I'm averaging 2.147"; ~.0023" too big. The nos Kolbenshmidt German bearings are .020", so I need about 2.146"-2.148" I.D.
The conn rod I.D. without bearings installed are 2.277" average. Does anyone know what the big end I.D. is supposed to be without bearings? I had it written down. Just can't find it now.
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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:19 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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Oh! Also, the bolt threads look crappy, like they can cut you if you run your finger around them. The 12-point hex looks brittle and rough. The counterbore for the cap's pins to go through is not smooth, and the tap job looks flaky. Like if I used a pic, I could break some pieces loose. The body of the rods are shot-peened, but look like they had all been banged-up from being together. The keyways are also rough. It seems they are either cutting too fast, or their tools are dull.
CB's Unitechs are almost perfect in-contrast. You can see scribe marks from the team running a bore gauge through them. Quality throughout, and for the same price! Too bad they don't have 5.325". |
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mcmscott
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Joined: March 12, 2010
Posts: 4856
Location: sanger ca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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CB finishes all their rods in house and only use ARP bolts, pay a little more, but you get what you pay for.
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nsracing
Samba Member
Joined: November 16, 2003
Posts: 9467
Location: NOVA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:11 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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When are you people going to learn? Anything China --- is CHINA!  |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:23 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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Rod housing spec is 2.2755-2.2763 for most bearings
it is very risky to remove any material from the parting surfaces as it will change the size and shape of the big end(yes even if it isn't flat).
I am not sure if your measurements are correct or not but but it is safe to assume the rods are NFG.
There is a number of things i dislike about them, and I don't recommend anybody buy them. |
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mark tucker
Samba Member
Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 4:40 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| so what the aa price? the cb's are cheep ,I like the cb's, I did get a set of aa's brought to me a few years back for a knowit alls build....and they had the CB ground off the beam and re shot peened .you could still read the CB. |
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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:04 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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CBs and AAs are the exact same price: $100. I have a few new sets of CB Unitechs on my shelf, but I want to still run these. They just likely need regrinding.
Modok, I only removed the high spots on the edges with a tiny file, like the ones used for points. I did not disturb the flat surface. I measured many times. My tools are all calibrated. I can't see where I could be measuring them wrong.
Hey, Silverline bearings tend to run large, right? I may be able to take up the slack with those...🤔 |
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| just recon them. if there big you can just serface the cap and get it where you want it...if your good and know what your doing.ive seen many rods effed up by a moron that thinks he was reconditioning them. you cant fix stupid. most new rods do have some shit hanging off of them or crap under the caps.just another part of building properly. |
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modok
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Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:01 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
Modok, I only removed the high spots on the edges with a tiny file, like the ones used for points. |
ah, ok, good. it is very good knock down sharp edges. Even put a little bevel on the inside so the bearings don't get SCRAPED on the way in.
Wasn't sure what was meant by "dressing", and high spots. Lets get high, head over to the spot and have some italian dressing. yeah that sounds like fun.
The problem is if the rods are over size, there probably won't be enough crush.
If your measurements are spot-on, then just need to know the bearing thickness and the crush can be estimated. Std is .055 I think, and most brands are.
have a ball end mic? or a ball bearing and some tape?
so far, bearing is .0005 big, housning .001 big.....means you undertightened the BOLTS! (best guess based on limited info available, no warranty expressed or implied)
I've done what Mark is saying a few times, sometimes it worked sometimes not. The trouble is the rod really does change the ID if you change the shape or even surface finish of the parting surface, and a lot of times it isn't anywhere near flat to begin with. If it's curvd, and you cut it flat.....it just gets weird. NICE rods the surfaces will be very near flat but cheapo and production rods....not so. They make them no better than they need to be and do they need to be flat? well no, actually. a rough milled surface sith some push off is good enough. A trick I use is I'll grind it, then sand it on my big old block a bit BEFORE re-sizing, then if I want to cheat after the fact and tighten it up I can lap it x number of strokes and do so. It's hard to get a cap grinder to repeat, especially on main caps but rods too. Last set of VW rods I did I had to go through about 5 sets to get one set. ALL manner of dysfunction. Parting surface cut crooked on belt sander resulting in big end ID out of square with the sides, parting surface ground on some DULL stone with a ton of push-off, so far from flat I'd have to take .004 off it just to get it to clean. Didn't chamfer the hole after grinding and peeled metal off the bolt. Some too short. Pin bushings bore too big. Bent. Too light. too heavy. pin bushings galled on the way in, seam in the wrong place. It was a comedy of error. I even showed the new guy because it was just handy having all of what "not to do" so clearly illustrated in one job.
why 25 ft-lb? That's part of your problem. What size is the bolt? I know they don't use the FULL torque the bolts are capable of but 25 ft-lb would only be right for 5/16 bolts or 9mm bolt/nut setup. Too low. Should say on the box what the torque is.
I remember well the set I bough, needed a 11.5mm socket, but the torque was....32? maybe |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3464
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:47 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| modok wrote: |
| bugguy1967 wrote: |
Modok, I only removed the high spots on the edges with a tiny file, like the ones used for points. |
ah, ok, good. it is very good knock down sharp edges. Even put a little bevel on the inside so the bearings don't get SCRAPED on the way in.
Wasn't sure what was meant by "dressing", and high spots. Lets get high, head over to the spot and have some italian dressing. yeah that sounds like fun.
The problem is if the rods are over size, there probably won't be enough crush.
If your measurements are spot-on, then just need to know the bearing thickness and the crush can be estimated. Std is .055 I think, and most brands are.
have a ball end mic? or a ball bearing and some tape?
so far, bearing is .0005 big, housning .001 big.....means you undertightened the BOLTS! (best guess based on limited info available, no warranty expressed or implied)
I've done what Mark is saying a few times, sometimes it worked sometimes not. The trouble is the rod really does change the ID if you change the shape or even surface finish of the parting surface, and a lot of times it isn't anywhere near flat to begin with. If it's curvd, and you cut it flat.....it just gets weird. NICE rods the surfaces will be very near flat but cheapo and production rods....not so. They make them no better than they need to be and do they need to be flat? well no, actually. a rough milled surface sith some push off is good enough. A trick I use is I'll grind it, then sand it on my big old block a bit BEFORE re-sizing, then if I want to cheat after the fact and tighten it up I can lap it x number of strokes and do so. It's hard to get a cap grinder to repeat, especially on main caps but rods too. Last set of VW rods I did I had to go through about 5 sets to get one set. ALL manner of dysfunction. Parting surface cut crooked on belt sander resulting in big end ID out of square with the sides, parting surface ground on some DULL stone with a ton of push-off, so far from flat I'd have to take .004 off it just to get it to clean. Didn't chamfer the hole after grinding and peeled metal off the bolt. Some too short. Pin bushings bore too big. Bent. Too light. too heavy. pin bushings galled on the way in, seam in the wrong place. It was a comedy of error. I even showed the new guy because it was just handy having all of what "not to do" so clearly illustrated in one job.
why 25 ft-lb? That's part of your problem. What size is the bolt? I know they don't use the FULL torque the bolts are capable of but 25 ft-lb would only be right for 5/16 bolts or 9mm bolt/nut setup. Too low. Should say on the box what the torque is.
I remember well the set I bough, needed a 11.5mm socket, but the torque was....32? maybe |
Alot of great info that is usefull to any builder out there.thank you Glen. Good point regarding the rod bolt torque. Much better then the "your dumb cause you bought something made in China" lol.
Tabari, good catch. I think many people would have missed it and threw it together.
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Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 9:58 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| Modok, I wasn't sure what the torque was, because AA's packaging is plain. No spec was given, but I'll contact the CEO tomorrow about torque. Maybe that'll get me in spec. The bolt's head is 7/16" 12-point. Can't remember if they were 5/16" or 3/8". |
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bugguy1967
Samba Member
Joined: January 16, 2008
Posts: 4341
Location: Los Angeles, CA 90016
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:01 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| Hey Jeff! I know people that assemble a lot of engines with these and never had an issue, according to them. And they're not checking anything! |
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jpaull
Samba Member
Joined: February 22, 2005
Posts: 3464
Location: Paradise, Ca
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:11 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| Hey Jeff! I know people that assemble a lot of engines with these and never had an issue, according to them. And they're not checking anything! |
Good one!!!
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[email protected] MPH 1/4 Mile & 8.1 @ 83.7MPH in 1/8 Mile with Mild Type 1 VW Mag Case 2234cc commuter engine in stock weight bug w/only .491 total lift(CB2292 Cam), 42x37 heads, 48idf's, Street tires, Belt on, Mufflers, Pump gas, video of the run here: https://youtu.be/M3SPqMOKAOg
Transmission by MCMScott:
Rhino case, Klinkenberg 4.12, Superdiff, 002 mainshaft with 091 first idler. Weddle 1.48 Third & 1.14 Fourth. |
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modok
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2009
Posts: 26787
Location: Colorado Springs
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| Posted: Thu Aug 24, 2017 10:23 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| Modok, I wasn't sure what the torque was, because AA's packaging is plain. No spec was given, but I'll contact the CEO tomorrow about torque. Maybe that'll get me in spec. The bolt's head is 7/16" 12-point. Can't remember if they were 5/16" or 3/8". |
Sticker fell off I bet.
If the socket fir the bolts at least that's... some improvement! |
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[email protected]
Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:21 am Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| modok wrote: |
| bugguy1967 wrote: |
Modok, I only removed the high spots on the edges with a tiny file, like the ones used for points. |
ah, ok, good. it is very good knock down sharp edges. Even put a little bevel on the inside so the bearings don't get SCRAPED on the way in.
Wasn't sure what was meant by "dressing", and high spots. Lets get high, head over to the spot and have some italian dressing. yeah that sounds like fun.
The problem is if the rods are over size, there probably won't be enough crush.
If your measurements are spot-on, then just need to know the bearing thickness and the crush can be estimated. Std is .055 I think, and most brands are.
have a ball end mic? or a ball bearing and some tape?
so far, bearing is .0005 big, housning .001 big.....means you undertightened the BOLTS! (best guess based on limited info available, no warranty expressed or implied)
I've done what Mark is saying a few times, sometimes it worked sometimes not. The trouble is the rod really does change the ID if you change the shape or even surface finish of the parting surface, and a lot of times it isn't anywhere near flat to begin with. If it's curvd, and you cut it flat.....it just gets weird. NICE rods the surfaces will be very near flat but cheapo and production rods....not so. They make them no better than they need to be and do they need to be flat? well no, actually. a rough milled surface sith some push off is good enough. A trick I use is I'll grind it, then sand it on my big old block a bit BEFORE re-sizing, then if I want to cheat after the fact and tighten it up I can lap it x number of strokes and do so. It's hard to get a cap grinder to repeat, especially on main caps but rods too. Last set of VW rods I did I had to go through about 5 sets to get one set. ALL manner of dysfunction. Parting surface cut crooked on belt sander resulting in big end ID out of square with the sides, parting surface ground on some DULL stone with a ton of push-off, so far from flat I'd have to take .004 off it just to get it to clean. Didn't chamfer the hole after grinding and peeled metal off the bolt. Some too short. Pin bushings bore too big. Bent. Too light. too heavy. pin bushings galled on the way in, seam in the wrong place. It was a comedy of error. I even showed the new guy because it was just handy having all of what "not to do" so clearly illustrated in one job.
why 25 ft-lb? That's part of your problem. What size is the bolt? I know they don't use the FULL torque the bolts are capable of but 25 ft-lb would only be right for 5/16 bolts or 9mm bolt/nut setup. Too low. Should say on the box what the torque is.
I remember well the set I bough, needed a 11.5mm socket, but the torque was....32? maybe |
You are 100% correct. Those are supposed to be torqued to 32ft/lbs and that will absolutely affect the size of the big end.
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Paul.H
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Joined: April 03, 2015
Posts: 613
Location: England
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
| Hey Jeff! I know people that assemble a lot of engines with these and never had an issue, according to them. And they're not checking anything! |
Even a blind man can hit the dart board occasionally |
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jfats808
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Joined: December 10, 2007
Posts: 5022
Location: oahu hawaii
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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The arp bolts on the AA rods are soft. Careful what you torque them to. I thought I felt one stretch when I was torqing to 35. Real arp bolts can torque pretty high.
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vugbug68
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Joined: June 25, 2006
Posts: 2696
Location: sacramento
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:16 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| jfats808 wrote: |
| The arp bolts on the AA rods are soft. Careful what you torque them to. I thought I felt one stretch when I was torqing to 35. Real arp bolts can torque pretty high. |
I used these in an engine I built for my friend, the 5.5 length ones because CB didn't have any Unitechs in 5.5 at that time. I torqued them to 30 ft lbs, I remember reading that the bolts are weaker than stock studs and nuts.
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mark tucker
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Joined: April 08, 2009
Posts: 23937
Location: SHALIMAR ,FLORIDA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 7:14 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| china arp bolts....assole rong pong bolt company.... the first set of cb unis i got way back in...02 the nuts were junk, drilled offset and uppon torqueing they cracked befor reaching final torque...the bolts were afu from shot peen and gaulding due to the cap& rod not being chamfered at all any where (bolt holes) and just a shity bolt design. the last few sets Ive used were great.and that first set is in my 2028 with pioneer nuts from some itcheypussy mopar engine.they have well over 120000 miles as they were in my 1874 cc motor first (78.8x87) and have had oh so many zinngers on a daily basis... a good few today too. |
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ach60 
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Joined: May 14, 2001
Posts: 4139
Location: Santa Maria
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 8:47 pm Post subject: Re: Beware - AA I-Beam Conn Rods |
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| bugguy1967 wrote: |
I examined a set once and returned them. You'd think I would've learned my lesson....
Purchased a set of AA 5.325" VW journal I-beams for a good price. I pulled off the rod caps and discovered many little high spots from impact on the big end mating surfaces. I spent an hour dressing them up with a small file. After a good wipe down, and bearing install, I wet torqued the big ends down to 25 lbs-in and ran my dial bore gauge through. I'm averaging 2.147"; ~.0023" too big. The nos Kolbenshmidt German bearings are .020", so I need about 2.146"-2.148" I.D.
The conn rod I.D. without bearings installed are 2.277" average. Does anyone know what the big end I.D. is supposed to be without bearings? I had it written down. Just can't find it now.
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Return Shit parts to vendor.
The best way to insure we all don't get shitty parts is to ALWAYS RETURN SHITTY PARTS.
Vendors will not buy parts that they loose money on.
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