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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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 Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 5:56 pm Post subject: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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I've never had a problem with my rear hatch until today. I opened my rear hatch without holding onto it and allowed it to fly up and it did something to misalign it. It was difficult to close and I apparently forced it and scratched the paint but now it won't fully open. I see no changes inside to the mechanism. Has this ever happened to anyone and what are the first steps I should take to fix it? BTW it does close properly but only opens about 1 foot.
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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sgellis
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2016
Posts: 2014
Location: SW Nova Scotia, Canada
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Clara 
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12400
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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bummer!!! 
probably something bent in the mechanism. This can happen, after a certain amount of wear. Greg fixed this on a 66 we had; replaced some hinge parts with ones from a parts bus (back when there were parts buses). There was a bit in the Bentley about it. Pry bar needed.
This thread may help: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240449&highlight=hatch+rear+hinge
Are the round holes ovaled? Unfortunately you'll need to remove the headbanger to fix this. |
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GLHTurbo
Samba Member
Joined: March 30, 2009
Posts: 1376
Location: New Jersey
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 6:50 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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Before you start investigating, I'd wrap the perimeter of the hatch and opening with blue painters tape to help minimize any further paint damage.
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rennie
Samba Member
Joined: October 06, 2016
Posts: 246
Location: Orange County, CA
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| Posted: Fri Aug 25, 2017 9:42 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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Be careful, too, with the white plastic hinge protectors. When I removed my head banger (for temporary ceiling panel removal) I lightly bumped one of the protectors and a portion of it shattered away. It was repairable with a very steady hand and sticky glue. I assume all buses had such protectors... but just fyi in case you're an OG nut like many of us.
...and sorry about your hatch. Best of luck fixing it. |
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 5:06 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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Thanks Clara, I searched for a while and couldn't find anything but your link and the others associated with it are exactly what I needed. This is located in my Bentley book but nice to use your link without hunting the book down.
http://home.clara.net/hallvw/technical/tailgate.htm
I couldn't see any deformation in the arms but that doesn't mean much. I do not have the interior in as I don't get much time off from work to work on it so I have access to the parts, I don't see the holes oval either. I hope I didn't bend anything as that is yet one more thing I'll need to track down as parts.
These are the setbacks that continue to slow down my progress.
| Clara wrote: |
bummer!!!
probably something bent in the mechanism. This can happen, after a certain amount of wear. Greg fixed this on a 66 we had; replaced some hinge parts with ones from a parts bus (back when there were parts buses). There was a bit in the Bentley about it. Pry bar needed.
This thread may help: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=240449&highlight=hatch+rear+hinge
Are the round holes ovaled? Unfortunately you'll need to remove the headbanger to fix this. |
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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hazetguy
Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2001
Posts: 10773
Location: iT StiNgeD iTseLf tO dEAd
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:51 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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just gonna throw this out there, as it could be a "simple" solution: did you make sure that the bolts that hold the hatch to the hinge are (very) tight? if the hatch flew up rapidly and the bolts were not (very) tight, the hatch could have slipped/moved/shifted in the oblong holes in the hinge, particularly if there is a lot of paint on the hinge and the hatch at that mating surface. perhaps all you need is a realignment.
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14269
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 10:02 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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Warning!
Linda, be very careful attempting that repair. The arms can suddenly fly up if you are not in control or certain of what force you are relieving. The arms can lay your face open, tear out an eye, or crack your skull.
This time I'm serious. |
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 11:19 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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Thanks BarryL, that is very good to know as I look at the system it appears I could get hurt or just make a mess due to all the tension. I'll show my Bentley book to my mechanic who was my former student to guide me along. I'll set up an appointment with him to help me with it if needed. If it is a simple adjustment as hazetguy mentioned I'll try it myself but I didn't see anything out of place or bent or unusual so I am a bit perplexed.
| BarryL wrote: |
Warning!
Linda, be very careful attempting that repair. The arms can suddenly fly up if you are not in control or certain of what force you are relieving. The arms can lay your face open, tear out an eye, or crack your skull.
This time I'm serious. |
Yes good idea hazetguy, I will check to see that bolts are tight first. Has anyone ever had this problem of the hatch slipping out of their hands flying open and damaging the mechanism?
| hazetguy wrote: |
| just gonna throw this out there, as it could be a "simple" solution: did you make sure that the bolts that hold the hatch to the hinge are (very) tight? if the hatch flew up rapidly and the bolts were not (very) tight, the hatch could have slipped/moved/shifted in the oblong holes in the hinge, particularly if there is a lot of paint on the hinge and the hatch at that mating surface. perhaps all you need is a realignment. |
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14269
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Sat Aug 26, 2017 6:56 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
| Thanks BarryL, that is very good to know as I look at the system it appears I could get hurt or just make a mess due to all the tension. |
The danger occurs if you remove the hatch in the partially open position thus leaving the arms partially up or in the down (closed) position.
Remove the hatch in the fully up position using two people to keep it there while you remove the bolts, then lift the hatch away.
If for some reason an arm is down or partially down, grab it with both hands with leather gloves on as though you have found a cobra's head and lift with a death grip of diligence until the arm is in the fully up position. Keep your face away.
Once they are up the rest is easy and maybe a finger pinch if you aren't paying attention. Best to take before photos to be certain how it was. |
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Sun Aug 27, 2017 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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| BarryL wrote: |
| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
| Thanks BarryL, that is very good to know as I look at the system it appears I could get hurt or just make a mess due to all the tension. |
The danger occurs if you remove the hatch in the partially open position thus leaving the arms partially up or in the down (closed) position.
Remove the hatch in the fully up position using two people to keep it there while you remove the bolts, then lift the hatch away.
If for some reason an arm is down or partially down, grab it with both hands with leather gloves on as though you have found a cobra's head and lift with a death grip of diligence until the arm is in the fully up position. Keep your face away.
Once they are up the rest is easy and maybe a finger pinch if you aren't paying attention. Best to take before photos to be certain how it was. |
Thanks BarryL. I'm unable to open it more than that 12 inches. I'm in contact with Samba member Jeff Gannon who has done these assemblies for 15 years and is holding parts for me when I can figure out what is needed. I sent Jeff these photos in hopes he sees the problem unless others can see what's wrong. Look at the last few images as I noted it appears the welds are cracked.
This weld appears broken.
This weld appears broken.
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14269
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
| I'm in contact with Samba member Jeff Gannon who has done these assemblies for 15 years and is holding parts for me when I can figure out what is needed. I sent Jeff these photos in hopes he sees the problem unless others can see what's wrong. |
The arms you have are the strongest, latest, '67 style with the full strength pressings. |
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BarryL
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2004
Posts: 14269
Location: Casa de Oro, California
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
| I sent Jeff these photos in hopes he sees the problem unless others can see what's wrong. Look at the last few images as I noted it appears the welds are cracked. |
Your pins, hinges, and fulcrum points look good in those photos albeit needing oil. Yes, the crack is what appears to be what's wrong. I would think that by using household wood door jamb wedges you could add enough carefully between the above crack area and your roof to be able to open the hatch. Then add wedges to align and weld the crack strong. Maybe have the welder add some additional things as I think there is a weld that is inaccessible. |
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joe cool
Samba Member
Joined: August 20, 2006
Posts: 1259
Location: Yolo County CA
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| Posted: Mon Aug 28, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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| Just so you know some of the bus rear hatch spring parts are interchangeable with squareback rear hatch spring parts. Squarebacks being much less expensive and all... |
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Tue Aug 29, 2017 1:37 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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BarryL I think if I put anything near the roof I will dent the roof.
| BarryL wrote: |
| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
| I sent Jeff these photos in hopes he sees the problem unless others can see what's wrong. Look at the last few images as I noted it appears the welds are cracked. |
Your pins, hinges, and fulcrum points look good in those photos albeit needing oil. Yes, the crack is what appears to be what's wrong. I would think that by using household wood door jamb wedges you could add enough carefully between the above crack area and your roof to be able to open the hatch. Then add wedges to align and weld the crack strong. Maybe have the welder add some additional things as I think there is a weld that is inaccessible. |
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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Clara
Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003
Posts: 12400
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:52 am Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
.... This weld appears broken.
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Yup. That looks like a problem. I bet that break will flex so it is further apart as well. I just took this pic, for a comparison. I think it was a 65 bus, so the arms are slightly different.
[quote]
another of your pics:
I took these pics:
Once you do get it open, you can remove the hatch, and you may have to remove the springs to get the pieces where they should be to weld them back. Of course if they are too far apart, the hatch won't open, which is what you found. It is a pretty fancy geometry.
Turns out I can take more pics, of a 67, if you like.
Hope it works out well. What a PITA. |
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otahuhu
Samba Member
Joined: July 15, 2007
Posts: 561
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| Posted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:17 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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[quote="Clara"]
| LAGrunthaner wrote: |
.... This weld appears broken.
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Just wondering if you can get a small C-Clamp or something to clamp it up and stop it opening up further? at least enough that you can get the hatch open and repair it... |
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LAGrunthaner
Samba Member
Joined: March 18, 2007
Posts: 5509
Location: 1st Coast
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 4:06 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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I can't believe I posted this mistake in August 2017, but after looking at it now I think I know what is wrong and can use a little advise. I'll cut to the chase as per the above I released the hatch and let go like I would on my hatchback as I forgot what I was driving and it flew open hard. Then I was unable to close the hatch. I finally panicked and forced it close as I was on the road and needed it closed. I am able to open it fully only partially. But now I see there is room for adjustment on the bolts to the hinges.
Should I loosen both sides, then how do I adjust the alignment? I think this will fix my problem.
Max opening and it is shifted higher on the left.
Here is the trouble area (yes ugly)
Right side, clears the lip.
Right side hinge.
Left side I didn't realize I had any adjustable area on the hinge.
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| Lind wrote: |
| Have you considered simply starting with a nicer bus? I don't know what your skills are, but the race is easier if you can see the finish line. If you are not a runner, don't start off doing a marathon. |
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hitest
Samba Member
Joined: September 30, 2008
Posts: 10296
Location: Prime Meridian, ID
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| Posted: Wed May 13, 2020 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Maiden voyage just broke my hatch : ( |
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Back out of your garage and do this with the hatch unobstructed. If you are working alone- tie a rope, bungie or whatever's handy to the hatch- limiting it's upward swing so it stays parallel with the ground. The right side bolts look pretty snug (the washers haven't walked around) so I'd leave it snug and only loosen the left side bolts a 1/2 turn. Pull the hatch outward on the hinge until your washers cover the original depressions. Tighten (but just enough to stop movement) the two bolts and test the closing. IF it needs a little more- repeat. When it's perfect- tighten those bolts like you're mad at them.
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| EverettB wrote: |
I wonder what the nut looks like.
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'62 L390 151, '62 L469 117, '63 L380 113, '64 L87 311, '65 L512 265, '65 L31 SO-42, '66 L360 251, '68 L30k 141, '71 L12 113, '74 ORG 181
FU#5 |
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