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ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive
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Kevin Sharpe
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

mandraks wrote:
it appears the battery pack for a tesla weighs some 1200 pounds
That weight is for a Tesla battery that contains 16 modules. One of the advantages of the open source controller is the ability to use a wide range of battery configurations from many different manufacturers... for example, we have a couple of people experimenting with 10 module Tesla pacsk which will weigh ~750 pounds Cool

I had originally planned to install 16 modules in my bus and modify the chassis so they would fit. I'm now considering a 10 module pack accommodated under the bus with little chassis modification. If I go this route I may put the other 6 modules into a trailer and tow that on long journeys where I'm outside of the rapid charging network (in reality very rare in Europe today).
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 26, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Kevin Sharpe wrote:
mandraks wrote:
it appears the battery pack for a tesla weighs some 1200 pounds
That weight is for a Tesla battery that contains 16 modules. One of the advantages of the open source controller is the ability to use a wide range of battery configurations from many different manufacturers... for example, we have a couple of people experimenting with 10 module Tesla pacsk which will weigh ~750 pounds Cool

I had originally planned to install 16 modules in my bus and modify the chassis so they would fit. I'm now considering a 10 module pack accommodated under the bus with little chassis modification. If I go this route I may put the other 6 modules into a trailer and tow that on long journeys where I'm outside of the rapid charging network (in reality very rare in Europe today).


Well I was thinking of suggesting either a roof rack or hitch-mounted cargo hauler vs a trailer, but I suppose those batteries would weigh 450 pounds.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 12:02 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Sorry if I missed it but how far can you go on a single charge?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 10:39 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

any plans for a roof top solar panel?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Nubby wrote:
Sorry if I missed it but how far can you go on a single charge?
The Tesla Model S battery has an EPA range of 335 miles on a full charge. Obviously the Model S is a very 'slippery' car and I would expect the bus range on a full battery to be reduced to ~285 miles because of it's poor aerodynamics.

If we decide to fit just 10 of the 16 modules I predict the bus range will be ~180 miles.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 27, 2017 3:39 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

GLHTurbo wrote:
any plans for a roof top solar panel?
possibly the flexible solar panels... see here;

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=8542761&highlight=#8542761
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 2:12 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Fascinating visit on Friday to a UK motorsports company who confirmed they are building a complete Independent Rear Suspension system for mounting the 'small' Tesla drivetrain into the Split Bus. This will be a bolt in system that requires no cutting of the bus Cool

They will also produce a Limited Slip Differential and Tesla drivetrain mounting hardware for the Beetle, Bay Bus, and early Porsche. Production prototypes are expected at the end of the year Dancing
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 10:48 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

I think this is a great project and I hope it goes well!

Kevin Sharpe wrote:
We're making progress on the 3D scans and have today found a company that can 3D print full size copies of the drive units, battery modules, and chargers. The plan is to create low cost space models of the Tesla parts that anyone can use during the conversion planning stage.

It won't be quite as good as a full 3D-printed mockup, but how about taking the straight-on X, Y, and Z views of the 3D scan as flat images, splitting them into roughly 7.5"x10" sized images, making fiducials and alignment marks around the edges, rulers in the center, and then providing those images as a PDF?

The idea is that people at home could print the pages on either European A4 or US 8.5"x11" paper, on a cheap home printer that might have wide-ish nonprinting areas on the margins. They can make sure the scale came out right with the ruler (hold a real ruler up to the paper), tape the pieces of paper together using the fiducials and alignment marks, attach to thin cardboard, and then trim around the outline to make a low-tech mockup.

In other news... what do you plan to do for in-cab heat? I saw your later post where you will need radiator(s) for the inverter and motor... can you plumb some warm air off of that and send it inside the Bus?

I think some commercial EVs also have, essentially, an electric space heater plumbed into their HVAC system. It's a battery-drainer when used on the road, but I think some home chargers are able to do something like start charging at 10 PM, finish charging by 4 AM, then at 6 AM, switch on the space heater inside the car and supply power to it for a while to get the inside of the car up to temperature. The driver then comes out to the garage at 6:30 AM, unplugs the charger, and can start out in a warm car with a full battery.

Does the Tesla drivetrain use a small 12 V battery to boot everything and run the lights and the radio, or is there just a 12 V output on the inverter that derives from the traction pack?

Finally, you have to get a couple of stickers/vinyl made. One of them goes on the side of the bus and says "Wir fahren ohne Benzin", like VW painted on the side of their experimental 1970s electric Bus. The other one needs to look like the red-on-silver lightning flash that was on the driver's door jamb of 12 volt Buses, except it should say "300 V" or whatever the traction pack nominal voltage is. Smile

Thanks!

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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:10 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Hoehleneule wrote:
Kevin Sharpe wrote:
We're making progress on the 3D scans and have today found a company that can 3D print full size copies of the drive units, battery modules, and chargers. The plan is to create low cost space models of the Tesla parts that anyone can use during the conversion planning stage.

It won't be quite as good as a full 3D-printed mockup, but how about taking the straight-on X, Y, and Z views of the 3D scan as flat images, splitting them into roughly 7.5"x10" sized images, making fiducials and alignment marks around the edges, rulers in the center, and then providing those images as a PDF?

The idea is that people at home could print the pages on either European A4 or US 8.5"x11" paper, on a cheap home printer that might have wide-ish nonprinting areas on the margins. They can make sure the scale came out right with the ruler (hold a real ruler up to the paper), tape the pieces of paper together using the fiducials and alignment marks, attach to thin cardboard, and then trim around the outline to make a low-tech mockup.
This is a great 'low tech' idea... I'll have a look at this when I get a moment.

I'm still in discussion with various companies about the 3D scans. I've asked them to provide data that will be compatible with this project;

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=686838

Hoehleneule wrote:
In other news... what do you plan to do for in-cab heat? I saw your later post where you will need radiator(s) for the inverter and motor... can you plumb some warm air off of that and send it inside the Bus?
Tesla cars have a resistive PTC heater and heat pump that runs on the HV system. As you say these are very power hungry devices consuming 5kW at full power. One 'trick' that we use to reduce power consumption is to pre-heat the car and windscreen while charging on the mains... it's wonderful getting into a warm car first thing in the morning. Most electric cars also have electric seats and steering wheel heaters Smile

With regards to waste heat from the motor, inverter, battery, etc. This is 'low grade' heat at a much lower temperature than that found in a ICE. What I intend to do is to use this as background heat within the cabin space and possibly as a feed source for the heat pump. When not required this heat will be dumped into the radiator.

Hoehleneule wrote:
Does the Tesla drivetrain use a small 12 V battery to boot everything and run the lights and the radio, or is there just a 12 V output on the inverter that derives from the traction pack?
Today all electric cars have a 12V ancillary battery that is used to run the lights, radio, etc., and to 'start' the car. Once 'started' the 12V is supplied by a DC-to-DC converter connected to the HV battery, which also charges the 12V battery just like an alternator in a ICE based system.

Hoehleneule wrote:
Finally, you have to get a couple of stickers/vinyl made. One of them goes on the side of the bus and says "Wir fahren ohne Benzin", like VW painted on the side of their experimental 1970s electric Bus. The other one needs to look like the red-on-silver lightning flash that was on the driver's door jamb of 12 volt Buses, except it should say "300 V" or whatever the traction pack nominal voltage is. Smile
This is a fabulous idea... do you have any links to images of these?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 3:15 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

wowzers... gota follow this one
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:48 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

this is great stuff. I've been playing around with various EV "direct drive" solutions for my bus but this looks very appealing to me.

I haven't researched it much but what kind of availability and cost are we looking at for those "small" tesla units?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

edgood1 wrote:
I haven't researched it much but what kind of availability and cost are we looking at for those "small" tesla units?
The 'small' Tesla drivetrains usually sell for 2500-5000 USD. The number of crashed Teslas increases all the time so we expect prices to drop especially as new models are released Cool

You'll also need the inverter controller board (250 USD if you build it yourself, 1500 USD if you buy fully tested), driveshafts (current estimated at 200 USD each), and a Limited Slip Differential (current estimated at 1000 USD) if you want to keep the bus on the road Shocked

Obviously the Tesla drivetrain replaces the engine, clutch, transmission, and axles from the old bus... while delivering ~250HP with no ongoing maintenance costs including plugs, clutch, oil, bearings, air filters, etc., etc.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:20 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

vwjetboat wrote:
wowzers... gota follow this one
Very Happy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:28 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Kevin Sharpe wrote:
edgood1 wrote:
I haven't researched it much but what kind of availability and cost are we looking at for those "small" tesla units?
The 'small' Tesla drivetrains usually sell for 2500-5000 USD. The number of crashed Teslas increases all the time so we expect prices to drop especially as new models are released Cool

You'll also need the inverter controller board (250 USD if you build it yourself, 1500 USD if you buy fully tested), driveshafts (current estimated at 200 USD each), and a Limited Slip Differential (current estimated at 1000 USD) if you want to keep the bus on the road Shocked

Obviously the Tesla drivetrain replaces the engine, clutch, transmission, and axles from the old bus... while delivering ~250HP with no ongoing maintenance costs including plugs, clutch, oil, bearings, air filters, etc., etc.


I'm surprised somebody like EV West has not jumped on this in the US. You listed $8k in parts above, what about battery costs and labor to put this all together? I talked to EV West a few years ago and it was about $20k for a starter system in a bus but range was poor (around 100 miles per charge).
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:43 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

srfndoc wrote:
what about battery costs and labor to put this all together?
Today Tesla batteries typically cost ~1000 USD per module, so a 10 module ~180 miles range pack will cost 10000 USD.

I have no idea on labor cost... I would say the complexity is similar to installing a complete ICE system from scratch... obviously conversion will get easier as more people develop products like the bolt on IRS.

srfndoc wrote:
I talked to EV West a few years ago and it was about $20k for a starter system in a bus but range was poor (around 100 miles per charge).
It's important to remember that conversion companies have been delivering 'first generation' systems where they bolt an electric motor onto an existing transmission and repurpose batteries from Chinese submarines (CALB for example).

The great leap forward is the availability of OEM quality components from wrecks and the open source controllers to use them. I'm using Tesla components because they are the highest quality and outperform other OEM products. However, you don't have to pay Tesla prices, one of my friends has just purchased a 80HP Nissan Leaf drivetrain from a 2014 car for 600 USD Cool
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 6:55 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Kevin Sharpe wrote:
... the Tesla drivetrain replaces the...and axles from the old bus..

Will the bus end up slammed because of this?
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 11:16 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Kevin Sharpe wrote:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=686838
Wow... thanks for the link to another interesting project.

Quote:
Tesla cars have a resistive PTC heater and heat pump that runs on the HV system.
I know the first-generation Prius sold in North America had a PTC heater in the HVAC ductwork in the Canada and northern-US model, but not in the southern-US model. It ran off of the 12 V system. Of course, the Prius always has the option of running the ICE if the driver requests a lot of heat... I think the PTC is there for when you've been parked all night outside and need to clear the windshield faster in the morning.

Quote:
One 'trick' that we use to reduce power consumption is to pre-heat the car and windscreen while charging on the mains... it's wonderful getting into a warm car first thing in the morning.
Are you able to use the stock Tesla charging connector, or do you have to use a different one? What do you say to the charger to get it to like you? (I'm under the impression that there are some data lines in most late-model EV charge plugs, and the car has to do some kind of identify/handshake/authenticate/charge-rate-request to the charger before the charger supplies juice. Telling the charger that you are a 1967 Bus may cause some confusion. Very Happy )

Quote:
With regards to waste heat from the motor, inverter, battery, etc. This is 'low grade' heat at a much lower temperature than that found in a ICE.
In a Bus, though, every little bit helps. Obviously it helps if all the body and overhead air vent seals are tip-top. I recall previous discussions where some people would install a curtain right behind the front bench seat, so they didn't have to heat up the back of the Bus as much in winter.

Quote:
Once 'started' the 12V is supplied by a DC-to-DC converter connected to the HV battery, which also charges the 12V battery just like an alternator in a ICE based system.
I think that first-generation Priuses deliberately inject an audio-ish AC signal on the HV lines (or maybe it happens "naturally" by the action of the inverter). The control hardware also watches the 12 V and ground (earth/body) lines for any trace of that signal - if it "hears" it, at some low minimum level, it shuts you down, because it thinks the HV insulation system must be compromised somehow. Do modern EVs do something like this as well?

Quote:
This is a fabulous idea... do you have any links to images of these?
After looking through the Bus books I have, I think I'm conflating two different things for the 'Wir fahren ohne Benzin' slogan. First, VW developed and sold a battery-powered Bus around 1972; there are pictures of it on page 49 of "VW Bus, The First 50 Years" by Keith Seume and Michael Steinke (ISBN 1-901432-26-2). I can't find a picture of that Bus with that slogan on it, though. It had an E-with-platform-and-wheels logo on the front and the doors.

(On that Bus: electric motor where the ICE was, stock transmission/axles, sliding doors on both sides, second load floor maybe 45 cm above the stock load floor, tray of PbA batteries on the load floor. The "quick charge" was to drive the Bus in between two roller tables and slide the empty pack out one side and the full pack in from the other!)

Second, the one that said 'Wir fahren...' on the side was, I think, a much later model, like a Vanagon or Eurovan, and I think the only picture I saw of it was in a press release that I can't now find. Sorry for the false alarm.

The 12 volt sticker is here: http://www.wolfsburgwest.com/cart/DetailsList.cfm?ID=ZVW28 It's roughly 30 x 60 mm. I don't know exactly how big it is, other than it's narrow enough to fit on a Bug door jamb, by the check strap hole. I'll check my Bug tomorrow and see if it has one. I may have been wrong about it being red and silver, but again, I'll look tomorrow.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:06 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

BarryL wrote:
Kevin Sharpe wrote:
... the Tesla drivetrain replaces the...and axles from the old bus..

Will the bus end up slammed because of this?
No, the IRS proposals I've seen go from stock height to slammed. The Red 9 IRS I'm using on the prototype is stock today.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:35 am    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Hoehleneule wrote:

Quote:
One 'trick' that we use to reduce power consumption is to pre-heat the car and windscreen while charging on the mains... it's wonderful getting into a warm car first thing in the morning.
Are you able to use the stock Tesla charging connector, or do you have to use a different one? What do you say to the charger to get it to like you? (I'm under the impression that there are some data lines in most late-model EV charge plugs, and the car has to do some kind of identify/handshake/authenticate/charge-rate-request to the charger before the charger supplies juice. Telling the charger that you are a 1967 Bus may cause some confusion. Very Happy )
In the US Tesla use a proprietary charging connector. In Europe/Australia/China Tesla use standard charging connectors with some proprietary additional functions. All the cars we build will use a connector that adheres to the standards to give the greatest interoperability.

We've already reversed engineered the Tesla charger and an open source controller is in development. We plan to use the Tesla charger because it's high power (~10kW), liquid cooled, and available for <800 USD (new OEM chargers typically cost >2500 USD for a 3kW device).

Hoehleneule wrote:

Quote:
With regards to waste heat from the motor, inverter, battery, etc. This is 'low grade' heat at a much lower temperature than that found in a ICE.
In a Bus, though, every little bit helps. Obviously it helps if all the body and overhead air vent seals are tip-top. I recall previous discussions where some people would install a curtain right behind the front bench seat, so they didn't have to heat up the back of the Bus as much in winter.
Agreed, I'm thinking a heated rear floor might be fun Smile

Hoehleneule wrote:

Quote:
Once 'started' the 12V is supplied by a DC-to-DC converter connected to the HV battery, which also charges the 12V battery just like an alternator in a ICE based system.
I think that first-generation Priuses deliberately inject an audio-ish AC signal on the HV lines (or maybe it happens "naturally" by the action of the inverter). The control hardware also watches the 12 V and ground (earth/body) lines for any trace of that signal - if it "hears" it, at some low minimum level, it shuts you down, because it thinks the HV insulation system must be compromised somehow. Do modern EVs do something like this as well?
All the Tesla HV components have ground fault ('leakage') detection which will shut off the DC if a fault is detected. Furthermore, all the HV plugs have extra pins which detect when it's unplugged/loose and again shut off the DC. OEM components are incredible safe and we plan to use them exclusively.

Hoehleneule wrote:

Quote:
This is a fabulous idea... do you have any links to images of these?
After looking through the Bus books I have...
Many thanks... I'll follow up on the information you provided and look forward to anything new you find Cool
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:53 pm    Post subject: Re: ICE Breaker - converting a 1967 split to electric drive Reply with quote

Kevin Sharpe wrote:
In the US Tesla use a proprietary charging connector.
That may explain something I've seen on a few public charging stations that the local electric utility has installed... they have two cables with two slightly different connectors on them. The connectors are clearly the same idea - two huge pins for the big juice and several little pins for data and control - but are different shapes I don't think it's so you can charge two cars at once from one charger. (There are also some Tesla-branded public chargers around, but I haven't taken a close look at their connectors.)

Quote:
All the cars we build will use a connector that adheres to the standards to give the greatest interoperability.
Good. I like to think that somebody in 1895 proposed making proprietary fuel tank inlets for different makes of car, requiring unique nozzles, and the entire industry slapped sense into him. Smile

Quote:
We plan to use the Tesla charger because it's high power (~10kW), liquid cooled, and available for <800 USD (new OEM chargers typically cost >2500 USD for a 3kW device).
A 10 kW charger for $800 is a very good deal. We live in the FUTURE.

Quote:
Agreed, I'm thinking a heated rear floor might be fun Smile
It'd be hard to do on the door side, but perhaps something like a baseboard heater (long skinny sheetmetal box, with either water pipes or resistors in it, mounted in the corner of floor and wall) might work well on the non-door side.

Quote:
I'll follow up on the information you provided and look forward to anything new you find Cool
I didn't get to check the Bug today... probably tomorrow.

It occurred to me that Chapter 8 and 9 of "Tune to Win" by Carroll Smith may be of interest to you. He was writing about open-wheel race cars, so you won't care so much about the wing designs, but he has some other good information about aerodynamics in general and how to get air to flow through coolers. Unfortunately it is out of print and some used copies are priced a bit high; you might check at the library before spending money.

Amazon.co.uk lists some starting at £37. There is one that ships from the US for £17 and is listed as "text only", but I don't know what that means... normally that's applied to something like a college textbook that also comes with a CD or workbook, but I don't think this book ever came that way. I got my copy back when they were still in print and I think it was ~US$25 or so (about £19 at the moment).

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