distributor drive gear installation questions

[andrewtf]

I could use a little help from the people who know more than I do about this (which is about everyone who would possibly read this).

For back ground - I am in the process of converting my '77 bus's engine back to fuel injection. Some previous owner removed it all and stuck on a single carb.

The engine is on a stand in my garage while the body shop works on the carcass. I have nearly everything stripped off of it to clean the 40 years of filth off of it and get it ready to install the F.I. It currently has no fan shroud, push rods or tubes, etc. As part of the cleaning scenario, I am doing sort of a stepped process to try to keep things progressing evenly. So I clean a bit, rotate the engine, clean some more, rotate the engine......

I had removed the distributor to also clean it and had a rag stuck down in the hole. The day before yesterday I turned the engine so it was upside down and the distributor drive gear dropped out on to my garage floor and into a giant pile of dirty paper towels, rags, pieces of engine tin, etc. I know now that you should not invert an engine without the distributor in place. I cannot for the life of me find the spacer spring that is supposed to be on top of the drive gear or the shim washer that is supposed to be on the bottom of the drive gear. I am pretty confident that the shim is not in the case, and the spring had to have fallen out.

Now - please don't feel a need to tell me how stupid I am - I have done this to myself enough already.

Question #1 - Can someone tell me what this shim washer is? Part number or where to get one? I assume I do need the shim, but the Bentlety indicates two of them for a single carb, one for a dual carb, but makes no mention of fuel injection - so do I actually need it?. And I got no clue what the spacer spring looks like.

Question #2 - I can follow the Bentley (and a couple other previous threads) for reinstalling the drive gear, but I got this thing stripped down so I am not sure I can find TDC to reinsert the drive gear. Is there a way to do this without the fan, push rods, etc.? Or should I wait until put back the necessary parts to find TDC and install the drive gear then?

Thanks for your help
Andrew
_________________
'75 Riviera - 'BIG EMMA' (Pan American highway trip paused for a make over)
'77 Riviera - Murphy' (being reborn.... slowly)
'63 Austin Healey

[SGKent]

you have to find those parts, at least the washer. Close your eyes, concentrate and then go look wherever your minds eye tells you they are. If the parts are in the engine, you will trash your motor. I am more worried about the washer than the spring. It usually comes off with the gear but because it is under the gear it could have gone into the engine when you rolled it back over. Those parts are available but even if it takes you all day you need to find them to be sure at least the washer is not in the engine.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[andrewtf]

Yea....
I'll send out the search party for these things tonight.

The secondary portion of this saga is that this happened on Monday night. I looked thru the pile, but didn't know if anything else had actually fallen out - because at that time I didn't even know what this part was. I had been getting a little pressure from the family to get rid of all the dirty smelly stuff all over the garage floor since the smell of engine degreaser, oil, brake cleaner, etc. was beginning to permeate the house. So on Tuesday I dumped it all into my garbage can. I don't relish the thought of dumping all of that back out on my floor to sift through it - but I don't think I have a choice.

At least I got plenty of disposable gloves.
_________________
'75 Riviera - 'BIG EMMA' (Pan American highway trip paused for a make over)
'77 Riviera - Murphy' (being reborn.... slowly)
'63 Austin Healey

[aeromech]

Don't try to reinstall the drive gear until you have the fan and shroud in place
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[SGKent]

there is a video that shows the distributor installed early on. If you put it in then that will fall out too. I leave a rag stuffed in and the distributor is one of the last things I put in.

Use a big magnet to help find them. Only don't leave them on the magnet for a long time.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[Wildthings]

There is a possibility that the washer stayed in place held there by the cold engine oil. Shine a light in the hole where the drive goes and see if its there.

[aeromech]

[Tcash]

111 1105 233 Dist. drive spring
021 105 235 Dist. drive wshr 1.3 mm

[andrewtf]

I won't be buying any lottery tickets.

I have one of those telescoping little light/magnet things and I stuck that in the hole and the washer is definitely not in there. I stuck it as far down in the case as I could and it did not pick anything up. I then stuck a piece of wire in there and fished it around to see if I could find anything loose, but I did not.

I'll be sifting through the pile tonight and I'll report back as to what I uncover.
_________________
'75 Riviera - 'BIG EMMA' (Pan American highway trip paused for a make over)
'77 Riviera - Murphy' (being reborn.... slowly)
'63 Austin Healey

[Tcash]

If you are unable to locate the dist. drive washer. Pull the oil pump and fish around in there with a magnet while turning the engine crankshaft.
Good Luck
Tcash

PS you are not the first to do this.

[aeromech]

and if you still can't find it try blowing shop air back in there behind the pump. It just might come into view.
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[airschooled]

Magnets! Magnets on sticks! Magnets on wires! The little bugger is ferrous, so you should have be able to fish it out that way IF it was installed. If there was no spring, then whoever built the engine probably wasn't paying attention anyway. I would get a good small magnet on a string and drop it down the hole. Rotate the engine every which way for a few minutes, and gently pull the string out. Washer on the magnet?

Wolfsburg West sells the washers and the springs. Buy three washers, just in case. I'll expand on this in person with a depth micrometer, but the sheer wall of text required to explain my thought process could protect Westeros for thousands of years…

The camshaft/crankshaft gear interface is in it's own "oil well" in the case, so the washer can only fuck up the gears on the crank; it won't be able to touch a piston or rod. That being said, it would still be a total meltdown if it does get lodged in the gears…

Can you see, with a good LED flashlight and your best seeing-eye-glasses, if the case is "worn" where the drive gear sits in the case? The washer is supposed to prevent case wear, but if it was missing, the case would be machined smooth and worn slightly by the drive gear.

aeromech- I'm curious about why you wouldn't install the drive gear without the fan shroud in place?

Wildthings- this was my thought as well. When I had my engine part in Colorado last year, I couldn't get all the washers out until I was scrubbing the case clean.

Off to "work" ugh,
Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com

[SGKent]

robbie - Type 4 engine uses one washer only - it has 3 recessed areas on it for oil to collect. Type 1 uses multiple shims as I recall.

The Type 1 shims are thin compared to the Type 4. It is strong enough to cause some real problems if it ran thru the brass gear.
_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[airschooled]

[aeromech]

aeromech- I'm curious about why you wouldn't install the drive gear without the fan shroud in place?

Once the shroud and fan are installed you then have index marks to find TDC and you need the engine set at TDC in order to orient the drive gear properly. Does the OP know that there's a special tool used to hold the drive gear? It may take a couple tried to get it installed correctly.

_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
Capable of leaping tall buildings in a single bound

[Wildthings]

[SGKent]

works well and one may already be in the tool box. So would a dowel. :

_________________
“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin

[airschooled]

Andrew- here is a picture of what you're looking for.

Call Pelican Parts and ask them to send you one; it's not on any websites, but they are pretty much guaranteed to have it.

888-280-7799

They might also be able to advise you on the 1 vs. 2 vs. 3 shim debate. Bentley and Wilson are vague in this regard; they both list a spec (.020" to .050") for drive gear play, and the "use multiple shims" words seem like they COULD apply to both engines.

Engineering explained: Type 1 magnesium cases are softer metal than aluminum, so they require 2+ shims to create oil films between the distributor spinning at 2,000+ RPM, and the soft metal case. The T4 aluminum cases are harder metal, so one washer with oil grooves (like above) suffices nicely. Two washers will not hurt anything, as long as the oil grooves do not have any burrs on them to get stuck on each other. IF your case was truly run without a washer, the case metal will be worn down enough to need multiple shims. If the original shim is just lost, one replacement shim will be fine.

The T1 and T4 shims are different diameter, I learned today. Sorry to muddy the waters on that.

Robbie
_________________
Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com

[SGKent]

[andrewtf]

Well - Crap (I think)

In the pile of yech...... no washer to be found, but I found this:

Is it the spring that would have been in with the drive gear?

I looked again in the hole to see if I missed the washer but it is not to be found - at least visually. If it might help, I could post a photo of the bottom of the hole to see if anyone thinks there is wear there as if the washer was omitted.

I started to pull the oil pump (remember - I'm a rookie here). I got the bolts off - ironically it had three bolts and one nut on a stud. Is this even correct? Anyway... I gave an attempt to pull it off (as the Bentley says - with two 'levers') but it won't budge and I did not want to be too aggressive - just in case. Any advice on getting it off? just brute force?

Thanks to everyone for your help.
_________________
'75 Riviera - 'BIG EMMA' (Pan American highway trip paused for a make over)
'77 Riviera - Murphy' (being reborn.... slowly)
'63 Austin Healey