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EGR Demand in California
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 9:37 am    Post subject: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

One of our members has arranged for a local machinist to possibly reproduce the EGR bodies. He is also working on having the diaphragm reproduced. We need an idea how many people might be interested in a group buy, and what kind of price point we might need to make it work. Basically one would reuse the lever mechanism but us a new body and diaphragm.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:41 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

I have three of these, all in various states of condition... not really needing any, but would like to point out the adjusting rod and spring are missing off two of mine.

I think it's great that this idea is being pursued, and if you can, try to work in the option to get the rods and springs reproduced and make these up as a complete unit with gaskets and screws. I know that is not really your point, but would be helpful.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

Are we talking -'76 electrical EGR or 77+ mechanical EGR?

What is the estimated cost? Has anyone priced out a body from Interstate or the like recently?

Robbie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:38 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

Quote:
Are we talking -'76 electrical EGR or 77+ mechanical EGR?

What is the estimated cost? Has anyone priced out a body from Interstate or the like recently?

Robbie



Someone who has been working on this for a very long time came forward that their machinist has been able to reproduce them but he needs to know how many people might be interested to cost them. The 1975 - early 1976 used an electrical one. 1976 1/2 thru the AC Vanagons all used the same mechanical one. So did some of the FI bugs. If there is a genuine interest it is worth having some made. If there is no interest then I retire next year and plan to leave California at some point, selling my bus and all the spare parts before I leave. If someone has an interest in an EGR rebuild kit that includes a new body and diaphragm I need to know how many might be interested and at what cost. If 100 people want them then the cost to make each one isn't going to be all that much, if 3 people want them then the cost is prohibitive. I got a quote 10 years ago for diaphragms. It was $1500 for 100 pieces. Ray told Bob he could do it for less so I sent them a perfectly fine diaphragm off a perfect valve with the understanding it would be returned, however I never got it back thus destroying a perfectly fine valve otherwise. Ray told me he "cut it up" to see if a mold could have been made. Absolutely plain ass stupid to destroy someone else's good NLA part and not even offer to make good on it. These things are going to be worth their weight in gold someday if California sticks to its current smog regs. That said I have a like new spare that was rebuilt when the guy in San Carlos was still doing them - I personally am never spending another dime on these but if someone needs them I will assist them in getting them made. Right now I just need an idea what to tell Raul to tell his machinist - how many and what they are worth to folks who have to pass smog. My opinion, which isn't worth much these days, is that no one will want to spend the money. Late buses are getting rarer and rarer in California as they get sold to other states. We see a late bay on the highway about once a year now, most of the ones we see are early non-smog bays. Many of the smog shops around here won't even touch an air-cooled car at smog time, and those who do usually it is their first (and last) one unless the bus owner builds a relationship with the shop - or the shop owner had a bus at one time.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:48 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

I legitimately did not know there was a diaphragm in the later style bodies; that's why I was confused. I thought it was just a rotary/ball valve, but I've never taken one apart.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 1:49 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
I retire next year and plan to leave California at some point, selling my bus and all the spare parts before I leave..


fucking run!!!

and take the bus and parts with you. we have plenty of space out here Very Happy

I think it's a noble effort, but I doubt you'll get anyone to commit to it steve. so few are forward thinkers, and stockpile the stuff that could single handedly remove their car from the road. honestly, I think you are wasting your time, but you never know.

even if it cost 2-300.00 for one (and I needed it) I would buy one....but folks here have never bought a genuine part for a real car from the dealer, and have no clue what stuff costs....

my salty, corroded 0.02
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:35 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

[email protected] wrote:
SGKent wrote:
I retire next year and plan to leave California at some point, selling my bus and all the spare parts before I leave..


fucking run!!!

and take the bus and parts with you. we have plenty of space out here Very Happy

I think it's a noble effort, but I doubt you'll get anyone to commit to it steve. so few are forward thinkers, and stockpile the stuff that could single handedly remove their car from the road. honestly, I think you are wasting your time, but you never know.

even if it cost 2-300.00 for one (and I needed it) I would buy one....but folks here have never bought a genuine part for a real car from the dealer, and have no clue what stuff costs....

my salty, corroded 0.02


This project resurrected itself. Right now I am not buying any replacement parts or investing time in them. It was 110 F all this week with really crappy air because of all the fires. I can't go outside without feeling chest pain from the particles in the air (reactive airway probably from so many years being around solvents, living in California etc).
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:42 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

All,
I visited the shop today and we talked about different options. My only regret is I should have pursued this more aggressively when Steve gave me his pristine EGR body 2 years ago. As it stands, they think it is a simple part to make for the most part. They might try aluminum first so I can test it. Ultimately they feel stainless would be the way to go. If no one wants these, I might get the friend of a friend deal and have a couple made for myself. It does not seem like there is much interest anymore unfortunately but lets see how this post progresses in the next few weeks.

The current CAD model I gave them has this a rectangle block not matching the original exterior but matching the inside for the most part. They might make it look more like the original if they have time. I told them no hurry here.

We did not discuss diaphragm yet, Mine currently is torn and the bus wont idle. I have it blocked off.

Steve, I understand your position on this. I would like to buy any stock you have on this topic if and when you leave the state and don't need them anymore. I appreciate all you have done for us.

I see quite a few late bays in SoCal in my area.

Ramon
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 2:47 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Quote:
Are we talking -'76 electrical EGR or 77+ mechanical EGR?

What is the estimated cost? Has anyone priced out a body from Interstate or the like recently?

Robbie



Someone who has been working on this for a very long time came forward that their machinist has been able to reproduce them but he needs to know how many people might be interested to cost them. The 1975 - early 1976 used an electrical one. 1976 1/2 thru the AC Vanagons all used the same mechanical one. So did some of the FI bugs. If there is a genuine interest it is worth having some made. If there is no interest then I retire next year and plan to leave California at some point, selling my bus and all the spare parts before I leave. If someone has an interest in an EGR rebuild kit that includes a new body and diaphragm I need to know how many might be interested and at what cost. If 100 people want them then the cost to make each one isn't going to be all that much, if 3 people want them then the cost is prohibitive. I got a quote 10 years ago for diaphragms. It was $1500 for 100 pieces. Ray told Bob he could do it for less so I sent them a perfectly fine diaphragm off a perfect valve with the understanding it would be returned, however I never got it back thus destroying a perfectly fine valve otherwise. Ray told me he "cut it up" to see if a mold could have been made. Absolutely plain ass stupid to destroy someone else's good NLA part and not even offer to make good on it. These things are going to be worth their weight in gold someday if California sticks to its current smog regs. That said I have a like new spare that was rebuilt when the guy in San Carlos was still doing them - I personally am never spending another dime on these but if someone needs them I will assist them in getting them made. Right now I just need an idea what to tell Raul to tell his machinist - how many and what they are worth to folks who have to pass smog. My opinion, which isn't worth much these days, is that no one will want to spend the money. Late buses are getting rarer and rarer in California as they get sold to other states. We see a late bay on the highway about once a year now, most of the ones we see are early non-smog bays. Many of the smog shops around here won't even touch an air-cooled car at smog time, and those who do usually it is their first (and last) one unless the bus owner builds a relationship with the shop - or the shop owner had a bus at one time.



Hey....you asshole.....thats not what I said...at all. And thats not what happened.

Why dont we get a little more accurate here.

I made 13 molds over five months......with 6 different elastomer compounds. The last two molds destroyed the original part as the molding compound stuck. Between every other mold I had to rebuild the base part with polyester and silicone.

Perfectly fine part my ass.....it was dry as a bone, semi-hard and had cracks all over it...still...in good enough shape for getting a shape....but did not survive the molding process needed for a high temp polymer pressure casting mold.

This issue was primarily finding a proper mold release for the types of elastomers as well as the condition of the part.

The requirement for these parts is fuel resistance and 450F-500F exposure. Its originally made of viton. I was working to make them out of a high temperature castable silicone with a diluent that would allow the mold to be pumped under about 200 psi to allow for higher density to diplicate the viton.

Sorry it didn't work .....and oh....did I bill you or Hoody for the $1200 I spent on chemistry and mold materials?...un...NO....you thankless bullshitting fucker!

NO...and there was never a plan to charge anyone for anything because the free casting exercise also would have solved a few problems for me.

By the way....since that time I have found just about the only self castable liquid viton products on the market from one of my aerospace customers.

Seeing this thread I was thinking about digging out the cracked molds and buying a used EGR valve on the market and giving this another shot...or at least passing on my finds in the chemistry department.....maybe not so much now.

The object was to make a pressure cast part of something that matched Viton's capabilities...without having to have a polished tool steel mold made that could be injection molded....which means.....$$$$$.

anyone who tells you they can make a very limited number of diaphragms from the ORIGINAL viton material ...for cheap....is full of shit.

If you are going to bad mouth someone...get your story straight. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:28 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

is there a way to function test these? i removed the valve, bar and exhaust pipe on my 77. it moves freely but have no idea if it works as designed.

Steve,

what does leaving Cali have to do with selling the bus? Just unloading all the life baggage?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 3:34 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

aerosurfer wrote:
is there a way to function test these? i removed the valve, bar and exhaust pipe on my 77. it moves freely but have no idea if it works as designed.


Functional testing requires it completely installed, and hooked up, (not blocked off at the muffler pickup pipe.)

- Disconnect the mechanical linkage arm.
- Make sure the engine is warmed up, and the idle speed is within spec, (or 50 RPM higher if you like the added oil pressure and cooling air flow.)
- Engage the lever on the EGR body by hand, and listen for a drop in idle RPM. You will feel a resistance as the slack in the mechanism is taken up, and the actual EGR valve opens.

This does not indicate that your valve/diaphragm is perfect, but it does tell you if it is functioning. This is the same test that the smog referee is supposed to perform in California, but I've never seen it done after babysitting three or four late model smog checks…

Adjustment is detailed in Bentley, Fuel Injection, Section 7.

Good luck!
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:20 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

For the Calif smog inspection, the EGR is only visually checked, but not functionally tested.
See the check list below from my recent test:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I was lucky enough to have the linkage and spring for the EGR so it passed visually. And luckily, the inspector didn't look under the tin, since the filter wasn't installed, and both ports blocked off. Shocked
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:21 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

KentPS wrote:
For the Calif smog inspection, my EGR is only visually checked, but not functionally tested.


Fixed it for you… I think was supposed to be functionally checked… Laughing
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:38 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

But is does go to prove these engines can be made just as clean without it. if only the laws would get updated a bit
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:49 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

Amazingly, you're correct, Robbie. Shocked

I just checked the CA smog check manual online, and it does say to check the EGR functional test...
"1.4.4 EGR System Functional Test
All 1995 model-year and older vehicles equipped with EGR and subject to a two-speed idle test shall undergo the EGR functional test.
Inspectors must follow the functional test procedures prescribed by the vehicle manufacturer."

So I must have been lucky when I had mine tested.

And it is insane that CA requires 40+ year old vehicles to pass these tests, when parts are no longer available. I'm thinking that Mexico will be a good place to retire, so smog testing will be history for me in a few years.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 4:53 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

KentPS wrote:
Amazingly, you're correct, Robbie. Shocked

So I must have been lucky when I had mine tested.


I'm not smart. I just read a lot.

You're not lucky; your referee is lazy. Razz


aerosurfer wrote:
But is does go to prove these engines can be made just as clean without it. if only the laws would get updated a bit


I wish it was that easy. Users KentPS and tommu passed smog with identical (within 25ppm) NOx levels on their buses. However, tommu was in the Gross Polluter category of NOx before we adjusted his EGR to be on the brink of out-of-spec and dropped his timing to the lower limit. There was absolutely no way that his engine would ever have passed without the EGR system to take combustion temperatures and pressure down.

EGR almost exclusively affects NOx. So if your engine is failing on high NOx values, you NEED your EGR system, no exceptions. If your engine is fine without it, go buy yourself a beer and pat your engine builder on the back.

Robbie
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

Until the diaphragm is successfully reproduced this entire discussion is a mute point. I think that a lot of original egr's can be made functional with a new diaphragm. The pitting in the plunger areas can be lapped out. In others where it can't the holes could be slightly enlarged and the only piece that would need to be machined is the small SS piece that threads onto the interior rod.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:02 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

Gee Ray - How many times did you tell Bob and I you were sending it back?It really doesn't matter how YOU destroyed it, it wasn't yours tp destroy and it was lent with the understanding that it would be returned in original condition so I could put the valve back together. I only said you cut it up as part of trying to make a new one because that is what you told Bob and I.

Bob - thanks for trying.

Raul - you have come the closest to achieving this. If the state starts enforcing the functional test again there are a lot of folks headed to the referee.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:08 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

Not knowing much about the EGR and how it functions or how vital its is, it would be hard for me to commit to anything. The last time I had engine issues the shop I took it to said my EGR needed to be fixed and they said they did. What or how they fixed it I have no idea.

That being said, if a replacement part can be made that is the same quality or better (I personally don't care about originality), I would buy it. For how much? Its hard to say but for a part that I have little knowledge about I would have a hard time paying more that $100 for it. For contrast/comparison when my S-boot was cracked and no OE replacements could be found new, I was willing to pay the price for a replacement part, that is in my mind superior to the original, from Gee Bee here (as well as other hoses he makes).


On a personal note, I take sgkents advice to heart as he hasn't steered me wrong yet (especially when it comes to parts availability and worthy replacements like, CATs and ball joints). So if he thinks this is a good opportunity and something worth pursuing, I believe him.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 04, 2017 6:23 pm    Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California Reply with quote

One important aspect of EGR functionality is the dispersing tube within the air distribution box/plenum. On the 1977 I had, I found mine to be more than halfway fouled with carbon and oily crap. Easy enough to clean, but if you are not aware of this, you might think your EGR valve is failing if during your test, you don't seem to be noticing any difference.

And of course, the EGR filter and tubing must be clean, too.
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