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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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 Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:25 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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[quote="airkooledchris"]
| SGKent wrote: |
the Swiss have a process now to convert atmospheric CO2 to alcohol.
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Read up on the process before you flame it. If you feel the CO2 is bad then sell your bus and walk or ride a horse.
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:29 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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[quote="SGKent"]
| airkooledchris wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
the Swiss have a process now to convert atmospheric CO2 to alcohol.
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Read up on the process before you flame it. If you feel the CO2 is bad then sell your bus and walk or ride a horse. |
I believe this Forum recommends water buffalo over horse. YMMV.
We can scavenge CO2 and become carbon neutral currently at about 2-3x energy cost, which is pretty devastating economically.
This has to be brought down, and, of course, there is no point in doing it unless the rest of world comes on board.
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:52 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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[quote="Abscate"]
| SGKent wrote: |
| airkooledchris wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
the Swiss have a process now to convert atmospheric CO2 to alcohol.
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Read up on the process before you flame it. If you feel the CO2 is bad then sell your bus and walk or ride a horse. |
I believe this Forum recommends water buffalo over horse. YMMV.
We can scavenge CO2 and become carbon neutral currently at about 2-3x energy cost, which is pretty devastating economically.
This has to be brought down, and, of course, there is no point in doing it unless the rest of world comes on board. |
The process is being refined and the proposal is that all new AC units will have a miniature plant as part of the condensor coil because they move so much air. The alcohol will be used in fuel cells to generate power, or in vehicles or collected. The engineers feel we are about 10 years from implementing the process worldwide. CO2 is in surplus and they will mine it. Unless the world decides to cut its population substantially thru reduced birth rates there is no other solution on the table right now. KentPS commented yesterday that he is buying gasoline in FL now that he has moved there for $2 a gallon. Here locally it is over double that because of the gas tax - and they just raised it again. The state is proposing complete elimination of gasoline cars. The bullet train is a fiasco; the farmers who gave up their land by eminent domain have't even been paid for it (other than the politicians who sold their land and rerouted the path to profit from it). I started washing clothes at 5:30 am because this time of the morning electricity is 1/3 the price that it is in the afternoon because of mandated time of day pricing. I don't see the whole world buying into paying 2X to 3 X more for everything to stop greenhouse gases. In fact the Iranians are so concerned they are setting ships on fire and making CO2 without even the benefit of using the energy.
In the meantime those of us who want a working EGR are closer to a solution than before. There are other benefits than just lower NOX. It lowers combustion temperature without lowering the compression ratio. This reduces the risk of detonation and also engine operating temps. One is using the heat in the EGR gases twice.
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Last edited by SGKent on Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:57 am; edited 1 time in total |
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alman72
Samba Member
Joined: October 09, 2014
Posts: 2573
Location: MICHIGAN
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:54 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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[quote="SGKent"]
| airkooledchris wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
the Swiss have a process now to convert atmospheric CO2 to alcohol.
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Read up on the process before you flame it. If you feel the CO2 is bad then sell your bus and walk or ride a horse. |
IMO this is not a flame. It is a pre-existing air/alcohol (canned water?) reference. lighten up. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:10 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Quote: |
| I started washing clothes at 5:30 am because this time of the morning electricity is 1/3 the price that it is in the afternoon because of mandated time of day pricing. |
Smart appliance might be useful thing to consider here. Even better if you have a relatively modern one whose software can be updated to accommodate, I have delayed start on mine, but I don't think I can delay from evening to early morning rates.
there has always been plenty of CO2 to mine. 1,000,000 year picture is Co2 oscillates between 200-300ppm with long period. Since 1800, we have steeply climbed to 400 ppm. We can technically easily, but expensively, mine at either level.
I don't think one need feel guilty about CO2 production of a Bay - its the same as any other engine of comparable fuel economy, plus you are saving the load of a new vehicle being produced by keeping something old on the road.
Engineer predictions of societal wide issues usually are rash, as they don't get out much.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:56 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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[quote="SGKent"]
| airkooledchris wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
the Swiss have a process now to convert atmospheric CO2 to alcohol.
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Read up on the process before you flame it. If you feel the CO2 is bad then sell your bus and walk or ride a horse. |
Nah.....I'd rather flame it right now .....besides....I already read up on it  ...and there are parts of it that are so mentally dense....as to verge on stupid (with regard to reality more than science).
To be fair its good science.
Yes....it does work. However the parts they conveniently fail to mention are that it uses an additive catalyst made of carbon, copper and nitrogen. And....not just dunped in as powders....its a sintered alloy made of nano-particles.
Expense #1:
These nano particles are not made mechanically or naturally occurring . They can either be made by "growing" tbem electrolytically or by various sputter type methods. That energy and $$$$$ cost and the hideous level of filtration required to operate labs and machinery around nano particles.....which go through HEPA filters like they are invisible.....is very high.
Expense #2: it actually takes ENERGY.....POWER....ELECTRICITY to make this work. Its not a chemical reaction.....its technically a reverse electrolysis. It does not work without electricity.
How much and for how long is not captured or included.
Expense #3: they are....or were.....this information came out five years ago..... noting that everyone could use solar or wind or whatever "surplus" power they have......to convert C02 to ethanol to later burn.....when they have power they are not using.
Cool.....but it does not just handily snatch free float C02 out of the air. It requires PURE compressed C02 gas. You will need tanks and regulators....and C02 takes COMPRESSORS AND CHILLERS....which take GOBS of power on a commercial scale.
Expense #4: no reaction is 100% efficient. There is a sludge/waste product from the catalyst. It has to be recycled or recovered or disposed of. That costs money.
Also.....ALL molecular change or change of state or electrolytic processes create HEAT or COLD. Depending on when you are using this process.....you might be able to use that latent heat or cold.....but thats either another expense or loss for the heat/cold exchanger equipment.
What is "better" more affordable science.....actually comes from the coal fired power industry. They already "sequester" C02....on a large scale.....and they scavenge it by using metal catalysts. The problem is that it can only work up around 600° C in the exhaust stacks....and the catalysts get gummed up over a ahort period of time and needs to be replaced.
So while they can do this with surplus/waste heat energy.....the catalysts have a cost....and they have to spend power to compress it...and then inject it into a deep rock formation.
Lately they have discovered LIQUID AT ROOM TEMPERATURE free metal catalysts made of catalyzed palladium and gallium with other additives ....yes both rare and expensive....but the key is that they do not bind up or readily deplete.....do not require nano particles....do not require compressed gas. They convert the C02 into a solid similar to a coal tar that can then be buried and will not break down and escape.
And while it sounds cosmopolitan to say a "Swiss" lab discovered the C02 to alcohol process.....it was actually Oak Ridge National Laboratory. Tennessee.....not Switzerland.
Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:18 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Ok Ray so you can join one of the people who walk and use horses because this is all we have right now. For what it is worth, airplanes worked really poorly and didn't have a low cost when originally started. Nor did catalytic convertors. OMG even Tesla and Edison argued for years how to make electricity work cheaply.
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:54 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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I appreciate the mention last page Steve, but I've really only been observing the work that you, Jeff, and Ramon have been doing. There is a tremendous amount of engineering that goes into all these little parts, and it is fun to see new solutions come together.
Every engine with a working EGR that I have sat through smog this year has been easier for me to tune.
I see people on Facebook pages dealing with late buses and early Vanagons in smog-exempt states, and lots of EGR valves and bodies are removed when they create a vacuum leak. I've been busy telling those people to save the old parts and put them up for sale on here, or give them to a CA car owner. If anybody reading this sees old EGR stuff getting removed, grab it! It's much easier to install a clean valve with the sheet diaphragm Jeff made up than it would be to try to polish and hone a rusty valve that's been sitting in storage too long. Of course, if the new valves are acceptable, this won't matter, but it certainly does right now.
| Abscate wrote: |
New rule - you can't bitch about the cost of another state unless your State doesn't live off the Federal government. You can find out where your State is by visit taxfoundation.org
Results are suprising to many.
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Another proposed rule:
If gas is $1.40 more per gallon in California, but the state fuel tax is only $0.38 cents per gallon higher, you don't get to say gas taxes are $1.40 per gallon higher here.
Well, there. Greetings from Portland I guess,
Robbie
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tommu
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011
Posts: 618
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
Another proposed rule:
If gas is $1.40 more per gallon in California, but the state fuel tax is only $0.38 cents per gallon higher, you don't get to say gas taxes are $1.40 per gallon higher here.
Well, there. Greetings from Portland I guess,
Robbie |
Don't let facts get in the way of a story Robbie.
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:12 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Since this thread about EGRs has derailed, I see no reason to keep insanity out of it.
How much CO2 is being introduced into the air from every soda pop, fountain drink stand and beer? What about CO2 fire extinguishers... should those be banned, and if so, what do you do with the CO2 that is in them now? Should we tax every one of the 7,000,000,000 mouths that exhale
CO2 in this sector of the galaxy to pay for a ramping up of coming population control expenses?
Should cooking corn into ethanol be cause for criminal charges? The proof has long standing acceptance that creating ethanol the way it is done in North America and transported to California for seasonal blending actually creates more greenhouse gasses and consumes more energy than it delivers.
Should we tax the creators of greenhouse gasses emitted from exhaling, arguing mouths about crimping or soldering? And if so, who will accept responsibility for the lead consumption and vapors during soldering?
Should we apply CO2 scrubbers to any mouth that argues otherwise? And what about those ovens being fired up for population control? Do they need catalytic converters? Do those same ovens need an EGR valve once the conveyor speeds up for the production of Soylent Green?
Fawk! |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 6:19 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| tommu wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Another proposed rule:
If gas is $1.40 more per gallon in California, but the state fuel tax is only $0.38 cents per gallon higher, you don't get to say gas taxes are $1.40 per gallon higher here.
Well, there. Greetings from Portland I guess,
Robbie |
Don't let facts get in the way of a story Robbie. |
Weird logic, because it sort of works, but then it doesn't. If we are paying $4.38 a gallon in Barstow, CA and the same brand and quality of gas is sold for $2.76 a gallon in Bullhead City, AZ, then it must mean...
... we are taxed, assessed, fee-imposed etc. more for gasoline than other sates. A pig's ass is still a pig's ass no matter what color panties Bernie puts on it. |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
So where does the other dollar a gallon difference come from??
Robbie |
Like I said... the logic works, then it doesn’t. It works because your point about actual cost of tax might be right. But then it doesn’t work because you can’t ignore we pay way more than most anyone else.
So. Don’t call it a tax... because it’s a Rainbow Unicorn “assessment” or “impound” or “masturbation”
Because it’s semantics in a game of cheating revenue capture. Blame Big Oil in California? Blame the Dems? Bernie? Trump? Obama? Reagan? Who cares. Bottom line: I pay way less for gas on one side of the Colorado River than the other.
I can’t change that. No one here can. And it will just get worse. |
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ivwshane
Samba Member
Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 1920
Location: Sacramento ca
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:21 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Demand?
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:31 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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No. Not demand... check gas prices in Needles, Ca and Mohave Valley, AZ and Bullhead City, NV. Then look how close they are to each other. |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Is it likely the cost of business in California may be the reason for the missing cost difference? Or... |
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skills@eurocarsplus
Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007
Posts: 16883
Location: sticksville, ct.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 9:20 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Wasted youth wrote: |
| Is it likely the cost of business in California may be the reason for the missing cost difference? Or... |
state tax is only one part of it. local tax is another thing...I have 2 gas stations in stixville and one is about .05 cheaper than the other. place is zoned differently and taxed as such.
we have one of the highest gas taxes in the nation, and yet are still cheaper than CA.
I really hope CA floats off to Russia some day. hopefully the 3 people I like from that dump escape first
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| gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
| Jake Raby wrote: |
| Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
| Brian wrote: |
| Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:19 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I really hope CA floats off to Johnston Atoll some day. hopefully the 3 people I like from that dump escape first |
Fixed it for ya.
I warned my close friends and family. If they sink with the ship, that's their own damned fault. |
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tommu
Samba Member
Joined: November 15, 2011
Posts: 618
Location: L.A.
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| Posted: Tue Jun 25, 2019 10:47 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I really hope CA floats off to Russia some day. hopefully the 3 people I like from that dump escape first |
If it does you're taxes will go up.
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Jun 26, 2019 2:19 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| tommu wrote: |
| skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I really hope CA floats off to Russia some day. hopefully the 3 people I like from that dump escape first |
If it does you're taxes will go up. |
That’s an uncomfortable truth of which most of the EGR free nation is ignorant.
How about we spend 3 drops more of our budget on people researching these methods and developing catalysts instead of 18T chasing boogeymen in the Middle east? Maybe we can catch al-Zawahiri bydangling some NOS eGR parts on the webs as a honeypot...
| Quote: |
| I really hope CA floats off to Johnston Atoll some day. hopefully the 3 people I like from that dump escape first |
Im impressed you know three people from Johnston Attol - well done!
| Quote: |
| But then it doesn’t work because you can’t ignore we pay way more than most anyone else. |
Tax foundation to the rescue again to clarify this EGR egious topic
Median total FED STATE LOCAL Income state is Michigan (#25) at 8.4%
CA is number 11 at 9.5%
Skills CT is worse at 9.7% - thats the a$$ kale tax that is extra
And my great home state if NY leads the pack at a whopping almost 13% of income burden.
Lowest is TN at 6.3%
(I delete Alaska and DEL from these lists as they have artificially low tax burdens.
I dont bitch because we make boatloads of money here of which i keep 87% (flat tax idiots need not get this) and have great services.
Gas price at pump = wholesale price+Taxes+transport cost+profit
First two are pretty constant at stations, last two are highly variable - capitalism, man.
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