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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:36 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Spike0180 wrote: |
| I feel like it would be easier to just adapt a later EGR valve to the bus... or get the diaphragm from another vehicle and mold out a adapter plate of some sort... Just thinking outside the box a little. |
This goes to my earlier point, but you say it better. Who care's if it's the actual OEM part. If it's doing the job within the parameters of the test, it should not matter who made the part or where it came from.
| Clatter wrote: |
If you can't find an incompetent smog shop in CA, you aren't looking very hard.
and...
4. Steve Kent is going to sell all of his VW stuff and get out of the hobby.
There will be a bunch of smog parts available on the market. |
That's all some funny shit, right there! |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:46 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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I believe that to add the electrical unit the throttle body must be rigged with microswitches that sense when at idle and wide open throttle. There are no simple bolt on solutions. I've looked. Everything requires that the throttle body provide the logic as to what the engine is doing. The problem is simple - there is a cost involved in maintaining the EGR on smog test buses. Right now everyone buys used valves hoping to find a good one. I get more and more PM's from people looking for one. Except for one rebuilt one, all my good ones are gone. My advice is always the same - buy them cheaply with the understanding is they are usually bad. Then when you find a good one use it. If that happens on the first one awesome, buy a lottery ticket too.
It sounds like 4 or 5 people might be interested if the price point is right.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12858
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| I believe that to add the electrical unit the throttle body must be rigged with microswitches that sense when at idle and wide open throttle. |
What about vacuum operated? VW used vacuum operated ones in several cars, Try 022 131 101 E from a '02 Jetta VR6. They use a separate vacuum solenoid also that could be wired in instead of the electronic EGRs.
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Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
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An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:13 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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One approach is to use the low temp diaphragm for smog every two years, then block it off until the next test.
Ugly, but at least morally a NF EGR is probably a minimal smog contributor.
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TDCTDI
Samba Advocatus Diaboli
Joined: August 31, 2013
Posts: 12858
Location: North Carolina
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:25 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Abscate wrote: |
One approach is to use the low temp diaphragm for smog every two years, then block it off until the next test.
Ugly, but at least morally a NF EGR is probably a minimal smog contributor. |
As I understand it, they put "emissions cams" on the entry ramps to the highways that work like "red light" cams & speed trap cams, you get a nastygram from the DMV a few days later.
_________________
Everybody born before 1975 has a story, good, bad, or indifferent, about a VW.
GOFUNDYOURSELF, quit asking everyone to do it for you!
An air cooled VW will make you a hoarder.
Do something, anything, to your project every day, and you will eventually complete it. |
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:30 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Yes, the 'sniffers' idea is gaining traction. Lots of 'speed racer' types with their souped up Hondas don't help matters. We'll see more of this idea, as the sniffers are another way to generate revenue for the state, plus help cut emissions.
Didn't the mid-1970's buses have a solenoid operated EGR? |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:31 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| If someone else wants to contact the 2 vacuum can rebuilders that I am aware of that may be able to reproduce these diaphragms here are their web addresses. Oddparts.net and Qualityrebuilds.com |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:39 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
One approach is to use the low temp diaphragm for smog every two years, then block it off until the next test.
Ugly, but at least morally a NF EGR is probably a minimal smog contributor. |
As I understand it, they put "emissions cams" on the entry ramps to the highways that work like "red light" cams & speed trap cams, you get a nastygram from the DMV a few days later. |
and DMV looks to see who did the last smog inspection then BAR pays them a visit. There are also the surprise pull over here smog inspections BAR conducts by the roadside, and also on the spot revocations if tampering is found. Most folks aren't even aware these things happen because they are just cruising along thinking they beat the system. The fines are against the person(s) who tampered with the system. Does one think that the smog shop is going to say I cheated and passed him when I should have flunked him? No, they will say it was in perfect working order when I saw it. Maybe he swapped his engine or something.
Although my bus is very smog legal, about 3 - 4 years ago I got a letter from DMV stating that my bus had been selected for a random audit and I had about 30 days to get it into a special shop for an audit or my registration would be revoked and placed on non-op. That special smog shop (first two places listed wouldn't even touch an air-cooled car) picked over it for every small thing, and found the timing was barely off (gee, we time them full in to protect the motor). I had to take it home, set the timing to stock then take it back again for a second test. What prompted it? Two things - one they said in the letter that the type of vehicle (VW bus) is known to be a high failure item, and (2) my regular guy got busted ($10K fine) for leaving a test open 10 minutes so the owner could walk several doors down the street to buy a legal gas cap. Well, it was a BAR sting car. They fined him $10,000 and revoked his special certifications for 2 years, telling him that he should have flunked the car rather than give the driver (BAR investigator) an opportunity to replace the defective gas cap.
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Last edited by SGKent on Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:47 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:47 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Ya gotta love California! If someone pursues the diaphragm and it can be reproduced I think there will be a great interest in these. Every Bus and Bug in CA. that has these EGR valves is otherwise doomed. |
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ROCKOROD71
Samba Member
Joined: January 18, 2012
Posts: 2770
Location: Boston, MA
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 9:21 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
One approach is to use the low temp diaphragm for smog every two years, then block it off until the next test.
Ugly, but at least morally a NF EGR is probably a minimal smog contributor. |
As I understand it, they put "emissions cams" on the entry ramps to the highways that work like "red light" cams & speed trap cams, you get a nastygram from the DMV a few days later. |
and DMV looks to see who did the last smog inspection then BAR pays them a visit. There are also the surprise pull over here smog inspections BAR conducts by the roadside, and also on the spot revocations if tampering is found. Most folks aren't even aware these things happen because they are just cruising along thinking they beat the system. The fines are against the person(s) who tampered with the system. Does one think that the smog shop is going to say I cheated and passed him when I should have flunked him? No, they will say it was in perfect working order when I saw it. Maybe he swapped his engine or something.
Although my bus is very smog legal, about 3 - 4 years ago I got a letter from DMV stating that my bus had been selected for a random audit and I had about 30 days to get it into a special shop for an audit or my registration would be revoked and placed on non-op. That special smog shop (first two places listed wouldn't even touch an air-cooled car) picked over it for every small thing, and found the timing was barely off (gee, we time them full in to protect the motor). I had to take it home, set the timing to stock then take it back again for a second test. What prompted it? Two things - one they said in the letter that the type of vehicle (VW bus) is known to be a high failure item, and (2) my regular guy got busted ($10K fine) for leaving a test open 10 minutes so the owner could walk several doors down the street to buy a legal gas cap. Well, it was a BAR sting car. They fined him $10,000 and revoked his special certifications for 2 years, telling him that he should have flunked the car rather than give the driver (BAR investigator) an opportunity to replace the defective gas cap. |
If I were that smog shop guy I'd be in jail for murder after that story. DAY-UM.
_________________
1971 STD BEETLE- DD-1st car, 1st love. keepin' it stock! 1600DP, Solex 34-3 Mexi Bosch SVDA Dist NOW w/POINTS
1977 WESTY "KrustyKamper" 2L FI
| 79SuperVert wrote: |
30 years from now, the next guy may not want your girlfriend, but he may want your classic car, depending on how nice you were to it. |
| asiab3 wrote: |
Careful guys, a petulant child can grow up to be president these days. |
**winter drivers: no survivors!**rust warrior**#keepbodyshopsbusy** |
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Abscate
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:30 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| TDCTDI wrote: |
| Abscate wrote: |
One approach is to use the low temp diaphragm for smog every two years, then block it off until the next test.
Ugly, but at least morally a NF EGR is probably a minimal smog contributor. |
As I understand it, they put "emissions cams" on the entry ramps to the highways that work like "red light" cams & speed trap cams, you get a nastygram from the DMV a few days later. |
and DMV looks to see who did the last smog inspection then BAR pays them a visit. There are also the surprise pull over here smog inspections BAR conducts by the roadside, and also on the spot revocations if tampering is found. Most folks aren't even aware these things happen because they are just cruising along thinking they beat the system. The fines are against the person(s) who tampered with the system. Does one think that the smog shop is going to say I cheated and passed him when I should have flunked him? No, they will say it was in perfect working order when I saw it. Maybe he swapped his engine or something.
Although my bus is very smog legal, about 3 - 4 years ago I got a letter from DMV stating that my bus had been selected for a random audit and I had about 30 days to get it into a special shop for an audit or my registration would be revoked and placed on non-op. That special smog shop (first two places listed wouldn't even touch an air-cooled car) picked over it for every small thing, and found the timing was barely off (gee, we time them full in to protect the motor). I had to take it home, set the timing to stock then take it back again for a second test. What prompted it? Two things - one they said in the letter that the type of vehicle (VW bus) is known to be a high failure item, and (2) my regular guy got busted ($10K fine) for leaving a test open 10 minutes so the owner could walk several doors down the street to buy a legal gas cap. Well, it was a BAR sting car. They fined him $10,000 and revoked his special certifications for 2 years, telling him that he should have flunked the car rather than give the driver (BAR investigator) an opportunity to replace the defective gas cap. |
That's a highly non-random audit. With sympathies, my guess is leaving a test open is specifically precluded by the test procedures the garage guy signed, so limited sympathies. Every 6 seconds, these regs are saving lives for you guys in CA.
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airschooled
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Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:58 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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California roadside emissions tests (where you pull in) are 100% voluntary. Just tell the workers you do not consent, and you're off.
https://www.bar.ca.gov/consumer/roadside_inspection_program.html
They're also not smog checks. They are data gathering points to gauge the effectiveness of the emissions testing programs. You bet they're going to point to a VW bus before they point to a Prius. Just smile and waive boys, smile and waive.
--
The on ramp and off ramp program popular in the late nineties has also gone by the wayside, with the information having completely disappeared of the state program's website some time in the last year. When I did the research in 2015, I have a few quotes on another thread where it was stated: failing an on-ramp/of-ramp check will send you a mailed notice, telling you that your emission are too high. Three consecutive notices will trigger the system into mandating a new emissions test (smog check.)
This system has been removed from government webpages. The last online source I can find about it is an LA times article from 1996.
So yeah. Drive on.
Robbie
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:02 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
...The on ramp and off ramp program popular in the late nineties has also gone by the wayside, with the information having completely disappeared of the state program's website some time in the last year. When I did the research in 2015, I have a few quotes on another thread where it was stated: failing an on-ramp/of-ramp check will send you a mailed notice, telling you that your emission are too high. Three consecutive notices will trigger the system into mandating a new emissions test (smog check.)
This system has been removed from government webpages. The last online source I can find about it is an LA times article from 1996.
So yeah. Drive on.
Robbie |
That's great news! I thought it was getting ramped up. I wonder why they mothballed it?
By the way, here is another used EGR valve for sale, and once again also missing the control rod:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Bus-Vanagon-EGR-Valve-7...mp;vxp=mtr |
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Spike0180
Samba Member
Joined: June 06, 2015
Posts: 2269
Location: Detroit, Michigan
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:10 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Wasted youth wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
...The on ramp and off ramp program popular in the late nineties has also gone by the wayside, with the information having completely disappeared of the state program's website some time in the last year. When I did the research in 2015, I have a few quotes on another thread where it was stated: failing an on-ramp/of-ramp check will send you a mailed notice, telling you that your emission are too high. Three consecutive notices will trigger the system into mandating a new emissions test (smog check.)
This system has been removed from government webpages. The last online source I can find about it is an LA times article from 1996.
So yeah. Drive on.
Robbie |
That's great news! I thought it was getting ramped up. I wonder why they mothballed it?
By the way, here is another used EGR valve for sale, and once again also missing the control rod:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/VW-Bus-Vanagon-EGR-Valve-7...mp;vxp=mtr |
because good luck getting an accurate reading on a car while it is moving and your sensor is on the side of the road, or even right over the car. If I were in court for some BS like that, I'd do some physics to tear that a big 'ol hole.
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Current State: Projects never truly end...
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Other cars: 2003 F150, 2003 Jetta GLI vr6-6sp
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Robbie - we saw one last summer late in the day going home. CHP and a technician were choosing cars as the CHP stopped both lanes on one side of the 4 lane. The drivers in line did not look like they volunteered - and from what it looked like, CHP was also writing some tickets on ones with hoods open as they prepped for the test. I believe there is a section of California code that specifies ARB has to have roadside monitoring programs:
https://www.arb.ca.gov/bluebook/bb02/HS26/44081.htm
Right now ARB is chasing heavy duty truck engines for smoke and emissions. However don't think that means they ignore cars. Here is a link to a recent draft from March 2017 on the upcoming collection program.
https://www.arb.ca.gov/enf/policy2017/draft_alpr_policy_030317.pdf
These things are always moving targets, and only the people at ARB involved in the decisions know what is coming next. That is just how it is. We chose to keep our bus totally stock to avoid getting caught in a "we don't check that any more, no we changed our mind now we do" situation. That is a personal decision that I made - I don't expect others should chose my standards.
Steve (Wasted Youth) As to the EGR rod, I'll keep my eyes open. Most get broken when the yards pull the engines out.
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Wasted youth
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2012
Posts: 5134
Location: California's Hot and Smoggy Central Valley
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:39 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| ...Steve (Wasted Youth) As to the EGR rod, I'll keep my eyes open. Most get broken when the yards pull the engines out. |
As I recall, it would take comparatively little effort to fab up such a thing. Mostly a point of annoyance... like the douchebag who loses the middle seatbelts and half the anchoring hardware when he pulls the middle seat out. |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:05 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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First.....I feel compelled to apologize to Steve.
I did not mean to be bitchy.
Yes...this project is a sore spot for me. It was a big deal to me....that I failed to find a casting solution....but it was not the MAIN big deal. I was more upset that:
A. it destroyed the original part and It kept me from continuing to work to finish this project.
B. I was out of time to continue on it at that point to at least get it to a stable level where they could take it to someone else to give it a shot.
The big deal that prevented me from getting right on it...to recreate the original part model ...was a change in jobs and getting ready to move. I was never able to get back to it.
Thats my fault...and I still owe SGKent and Hoody...at least an accurate shape model part to move forward with. As I noted...I finished the base gasket...before I put it all in a storage box.
I am in Missouri until Friday. I WILL get this model part out to Steve over the weekend.
Moving forward.....I WILL provide the information on the Viton RTV I found. That could be a game changer.
I will not post that here in public.....because even though its publicly/commercially available....because of how I get around....and the stated type of work I do....one could put two and two together (users of said product)....and figure out which company I was working in and thats fringing on violation of my NDA with them as I am not allowed to say I was doing work for this company at all (ask me to explain that one sometime  )
Steve can provide the information about that RTV product to anyone he wants. Its not REALLY an RTV...but it acts like one. Its a paste/gel just like RTV....but also requiers a 150-200* bake period to flash off residual solvent....and at least 72 hours before it reaches full strength.
But it is Viton-esque...has all of the properties of Viton...and heat resistance to at least 500F.
Moving forward....I have a question thats been bugging the sh*t out of me.
So....this is a MECHANICALLY activated EGR valve right? Lever operated?....please correct me if I am wrong.
If that is true.....the rubber dome on this diaphragm.....(which is the absolute bitch part of the whole thing to mold/cast)....is effectively....nothing but a "bellows"....just like the bellows at the back of the brake master cylinder.
Its an "extendable" seal so the valve shaft can move in and out over "X" length...without allowing either exhaust gasses to escape outward...or atmosphere to escape inward....right?
Again please tell me if I have the operation incorrect.
So.......why not something like this:
The flat gasket ....I can make out of sheet silicone or sheet viton or sheet Kalrez....Done.
The o-ring ...I can BUY molded "D" profile O-rings of Viton, Kalrez or silicone. Get one oversized by .010"...done.
The dome....use the metal dome cover. Put a series of medium tight viton 0-rings inside..maybe teflon spacers in between. Put high temp lube on the shaft as mold release.
You could simply pack it full of high temp RTV...or pour it full of high temp epoxy like ...even JB-weld.
The shaft would be free to slip back and forth.
You are in effect...making a seal "gland" or packing.
The amount of possible leakage either way would be minuscule...and when the EGR is "off" or closed...there is no leakage of ambient air anyway.
Just a thought.
Ray |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 1:42 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Ray I will be happy to learn from your experiences with this.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:12 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Ray I will be happy to learn from your experiences with this. |
Can you comment on how my eye sees the operation of this valve?
Unlike say the EGR valve from a mercury sable...which has an external vacuum diaphragm attached to move the plunger valve in and out......most of the bus units have a pushrod/lever assembly attached...right?
From one of your pictures....is this correct?
Thinking about this...I cannot really see why the rubber dome part cannot be gotten around. The valve is not operating off of vacuum right? It just needs to be vacuum tight. Ray |
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aerosurfer
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Joined: March 25, 2012
Posts: 1602
Location: Indianapolis, IN
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 2:32 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Why not just make it out of high temp RTV or the copper exhaust RTV, I know the stuff that squeezed out of my exhaust joints is still pliable (from the much cooler outside).
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