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scrivyscriv
Samba Electrician
Joined: October 04, 2011
Posts: 2922
Location: Memphis
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 Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Would the EGR or diaphragm we're talking about fit a T1 FI? I am asking specifically about a stock 1979 T1 FI system.
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Robert in Memphis
Dünkelgrügen 1967 Java Green bug thread
Engine rebuild thread
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bbrowncods
Samba Member
Joined: December 27, 2014
Posts: 58
Location: Virginia
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 5:51 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| bbrowncods wrote: |
I'm interested in one.
For me it is not so much emissions as it is getting back to stock. The ECU and AFM are programmed to account for the EGR being functional. Also the plenum directs 75% of the EGR gasses into the #3 runner. I do not know why, but I assume it has to do with that being the hottest cylinder and the EGR gases having a cooling effect on combustion. May not be a coincidence that the TS2 is on that cylinder as well.
I bought a couple of EGR's and they were good until I "inspected" them and tore the diaphragms. I found that my dentist had some very high temp polymer sheeting that you could poke a hole through and it not tear. It withstood a 500 degree oven for an hour with no problem, and he gave me some sheets. There was enough flexibility and stretching in the sheeting to put two 0.015 sheets together and the internal spring would hold the valve closed at idle, as it only moves 3/8 of an inch or so full stroke. No need to have a specially formed diaphragm material to withstand reentering the atmosphere. 
For the body I used valve lapping compound and a drill on the end of the internal plunger. A very light lapping sealed it right up in both sides, although I admit the body was in descent shape to begin with internally.
Still would like to buy a "new" one. |
Thats very interesting!
Can you tell me a little about the material? What color...a guesstimate of how far it stretches etc.? I may be able to figure out what it was.
Dentists use a range of cool elastomer materials...mostly for casting and high temperature work. A big chunk of that range is also used in other medical device manufacturing which is a big part of what I do. I am always coming across new elastomers and plastics (new to me) in the medical device arena only to find that they either migrated from dental or are migrating to dental.
Examples are some of the TPE's and TPU's that we use for "skin soft", printed sensor strips. While most of these are far too low in temperature range .....there are other higher temp variations of them.
A 500* F range implies a silicone, a silicone alloy or laminate or an alloy of FEP (Fluorinated ethylene propylene)...which by itself is good to about 400F constant. Ray |
It is a medium blue and stretches like a rubber band. He was using it around a tooth with a device that kept it tight. It caught my attention because you could poke a hole in it(to go around the EGR shaft) and you can pull on it and the hole will hold and not tear. It feels kind of silky smooth.
I'll try and get a picture tomorrow. |
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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| scrivyscriv wrote: |
| Would the EGR or diaphragm we're talking about fit a T1 FI? I am asking specifically about a stock 1979 T1 FI system. |
Maybe - there are some late 70's FI bugs that use the same valve but the top is flipped over so the lever faces the other way. If you know where some of those are new please PM me.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 7:43 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| bbrowncods wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| bbrowncods wrote: |
I'm interested in one.
For me it is not so much emissions as it is getting back to stock. The ECU and AFM are programmed to account for the EGR being functional. Also the plenum directs 75% of the EGR gasses into the #3 runner. I do not know why, but I assume it has to do with that being the hottest cylinder and the EGR gases having a cooling effect on combustion. May not be a coincidence that the TS2 is on that cylinder as well.
I bought a couple of EGR's and they were good until I "inspected" them and tore the diaphragms. I found that my dentist had some very high temp polymer sheeting that you could poke a hole through and it not tear. It withstood a 500 degree oven for an hour with no problem, and he gave me some sheets. There was enough flexibility and stretching in the sheeting to put two 0.015 sheets together and the internal spring would hold the valve closed at idle, as it only moves 3/8 of an inch or so full stroke. No need to have a specially formed diaphragm material to withstand reentering the atmosphere.
For the body I used valve lapping compound and a drill on the end of the internal plunger. A very light lapping sealed it right up in both sides, although I admit the body was in descent shape to begin with internally.
Still would like to buy a "new" one. |
Thats very interesting!
Can you tell me a little about the material? What color...a guesstimate of how far it stretches etc.? I may be able to figure out what it was.
Dentists use a range of cool elastomer materials...mostly for casting and high temperature work. A big chunk of that range is also used in other medical device manufacturing which is a big part of what I do. I am always coming across new elastomers and plastics (new to me) in the medical device arena only to find that they either migrated from dental or are migrating to dental.
Examples are some of the TPE's and TPU's that we use for "skin soft", printed sensor strips. While most of these are far too low in temperature range .....there are other higher temp variations of them.
A 500* F range implies a silicone, a silicone alloy or laminate or an alloy of FEP (Fluorinated ethylene propylene)...which by itself is good to about 400F constant. Ray |
It is a medium blue and stretches like a rubber band. He was using it around a tooth with a device that kept it tight. It caught my attention because you could poke a hole in it(to go around the EGR shaft) and you can pull on it and the hole will hold and not tear. It feels kind of silky smooth.
I'll try and get a picture tomorrow. |
Thank you!....medium blue......and.....opaque or slightly translucent? Smooth or textured?
Ray |
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KKiley
Samba Member
Joined: March 08, 2016
Posts: 662
Location: Aruba, Jamica, nope, Kokomo
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| Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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The rules must be different for buses than for Super's. The EGR test is visual only for my 1978. I have my results in front of me and the page posted in the photo section and it was never a functional test.
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1978 Super Beetle convertible
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:06 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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It has always been a functional test since the 1970's. The difference is that the part is not available and the last three or four years BAR has been letting the functional test slide. Unfortunately smog rules are a moving target in California and that makes it hard to predict if today's rules and procedures will be tomorrows also.
I remember about 5 years ago CARB made a huge fuss that new Diesel rules were going into effect. The trucking industry picketed CARB and the effect was the rules got pushed out. The rules would have also affected consumer diesel pickup trucks. One of the guys I work with sold his diesel PU and bought a very expensive new one only to have the technology change at the last minute so he has an orphaned truck with some very expensive smog gear on it. Based on a 2016 California law I fully expect cow farts to be fully monitored as they basically are in Europe today before the laws stabilize. Some of the Europeans say that a cow can't pee with out a certificate to do so.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 9:29 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
It has always been a functional test since the 1970's. The difference is that the part is not available and the last three or four years BAR has been letting the functional test slide. Unfortunately smog rules are a moving target in California and that makes it hard to predict if today's rules and procedures will be tomorrows also.
I remember about 5 years ago CARB made a huge fuss that new Diesel rules were going into effect. The trucking industry picketed CARB and the effect was the rules got pushed out. The rules would have also affected consumer diesel pickup trucks. One of the guys I work with sold his diesel PU and bought a very expensive new one only to have the technology change at the last minute so he has an orphaned truck with some very expensive smog gear on it. Based on a 2016 California law I fully expect cow farts to be fully monitored as they basically are in Europe today before the laws stabilize. Some of the Europeans say that a cow can't pee with out a certificate to do so.
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Also...in functional testing....its not that easy to actually see and track the actual "effect" of the EGR with the sniffer/wideband...when its operating....because its a momentary thing and not operating through the whole driving cycle.
This was most especially so before it was common to have cars on the rolling dynamometer as compared to static tail pipe probe testing.
So with static tail pipe testing... in many places the functional EGR test was just observing if the diaphragm of the EGR operated within the cycle, was hooked up properly and complete in every way.
With modern vehicles with upstream and downstream 02 sensors.....the few that still have an EGR...the systems...both the cars and the testing agent can "see" the effect from EGR. In fact...many EGR equipped cars newer than OBD-1....will be telling you before you even get to the emissions testing...when your EGR is not functioning via a trouble light.....or that it "thinks" your EGR is not functioning. And...at that point....the fun begins! 
Could be a simple vacuum leak....could be a catalyst issue....an ignition issue etc. Ray |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Ray the functional test is one pulls the lever at idle and if the engine tries to die it works.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Sep 10, 2017 3:36 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Ray the functional test is one pulls the lever at idle and if the engine tries to die it works. |
I know.....thats how it is on the bus......and even on vacuum operated EGR back in the day......the functional test was the same.
But not on many modern cars. They can correct. The old on/off stall test is not a definitive test.
They can correct and not stall. The simplicity in testing most newer cars which either self test through the 02 sensor or have specific range to be read by a tailpipe probe.....is probably why some states are just using a general visual test on older cars. They probably do not know how to do a basic functional test where they manually have to actuate anything ...and the testing machine has no functionality on a pre-OBD 1 car.
Ray |
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airkooledchris
Samba Member
Joined: January 25, 2005
Posts: 2713
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Ray the functional test is one pulls the lever at idle and if the engine tries to die it works. |
When CA smog test checked mine, they pulled the lever and then made sure the pipe connected to it got warm. (this was on my Federal 81 with EGR of course, the 79CA doesn't use an EGR) |
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JaimeH
Samba Member
Joined: April 24, 2012
Posts: 265
Location: Canterbury, NH
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:50 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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I would be interested in a new EGR if it was available. I have several used ones and the EGR part works, but they create a vacuum leak if left connected.
A quick search of prices for late model EGR valves showed $200-400 was not uncommon. If I needed it for a daily driver I'd pay that no question, and for a hobby vehicle if that's what it cost and I wanted it I'd pay it.
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1978 Transporter 2.0 FI, BA6
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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Ray - this is a VW bay forum. I could not care one bit how my MDX handles things. It has 80,000 more miles and 5 years of warranty left on it. I'll let the factory mechanic deal with that issue if it throws a DTC.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 6:30 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Ray - this is a VW bay forum. I could not care one bit how my MDX handles things. It has 80,000 more miles and 5 years of warranty left on it. I'll let the factory mechanic deal with that issue if it throws a DTC. |
And no one really cares if you care or not.....sue me!
Is this your week for being a dick?
The point was....if you get off your "everyone else is wrong" soapbox.. ..... and read a little more carefully.....BECAUSE few modern or even middle years emissions vehicles (80s until 96 with OBD 1 ending)....had ANYTHING in their emissions that required MANUAL ACTIVATION for testing.....few shops know what or how to do this when they do get their hands on an older vehicle that requires it. So its easier just to give it a "visual" pass. It was in amswer to someone elses post.....your attention is not even required.
I already saw some of this lack of knowledge in getting OBD 1 cars sniffed at the tail pipe in the mid '00s....when the vast .majority going on the rollers simply plugged in.
Dude....qwitcher bitchin!.....this whole forum is not just for you.
And considering in this very thread....many are contemplating using an EGR....or an EGR Diaphragm from whatever vehicle they think they can get away with.....which...DAMN!.....MEANS IT WON'T BE FROM A BAY.....oh....the horror.....the horror!
Blasphemers.....stone them!
I think you need to get laid......maybe we should take up a collection?
Ray |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:00 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| How about we just find a solution for this issue which is going to affect every Bus owner in CA. I would be interested in it for the negative effects that according to Karl kills these engines sooner by not running one. |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:36 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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A bit of an update:
First An apology to Steve (SGKent). I realize you have a lot in this and are frustrated because you did not get what you needed and got no part back.
It has driven me crazy for three years as well....as you can tell by my response.
Sorry I popped off and got bitchy.  
Since this point in time...yes I have sectioned that damn mold....,have better measurements to get you an accurate sample part back.
And...another member while looking at this thread...wanted to try some of what I have been speculating might be able to be done in this thread....and bought and sent me a complete EGR valve to work with.
And....sweet bleeding Jesus!....  ....had I probably asked you to send me a complete valve to inspect and compare what we are making...eons ago....I believe this could have been stupendously simplified.
I was trying to DUPLICATE the exact boot/gasket...without spending $$,$$$ on injection molding of Viton....and using the only similar high temp materials I could find...which are just really not suited for molding this part.
Its not the materials fault....it was my usage of them for molding in a method they were not suited for.
But the key here....is that from inspection of how the valve works and how the gasket/boot fits....duplicating the original part may not be totally necessary.
So The EGR valve that came in had a boot/gasket that was FAR more pristine than the One SGKent sent me. It is very soft and pliable and has no surface checking.
But I am not going to mold it. I do not think there is any need.
Some things I have learned:
1. From the earlier sketch
The part I keep calling the molded "half o-ring" of D-ring?....shown in the red circle on the right?....Does not exist!
The flex joint area in the green circle on the left....exists...but is not actually molded into the part. Its "BAKED" into the part....  ... because the cavity underneath is larger than the opening above and it gets pushed into this area and simply shaped like a flex joint with age and heat.
Its really just a flat gasket with a bellows. When the valve is closed the bellows comes up against the dome and stays there. The bellows is JUST like the bellows on a CV joint. Its purpose is simply to allow the valve shaft to retract without tearing the gasket sheet.
2. So in reality...this is the part shape as originally molded.
So....
I am making two different parts right now:
A. This one: Ignore the D-gasket in the sketch
But this time...I made a mold of the inside of the metal dome with plaster. That mold...is a mold just to be able to make the "real" mold....which will be destroyed each time I make a part....simply by throwing the finished cured part in boiling water and dissolving the mold off of the cured silicone.
The actual shape mold is made of a combination of sugar, PVA and baking soda (as an aggregate like concrete). Reasonably accurate and dissolves in hot water in about 1 minute.
I am waiting on the viton o-rings and spacers. Should be in next week. My only real unknown with this one is how much drag the shaft can stand. I do want it to affect the throttle linkage. In this one...the shaft slides in and out of a "gumdrop" shaped dome of high temp RTV that the gasket is also a part part of.
The other part I am making...is this one:
Its just a 0.020" thick sheet of super soft, high temp silicone sheet. It has a hole 1/2 the OD of the shaft going through it. I will groove the shaft on each side of the sheet with only .010"-.015" space between the grooves. You put one E-clip on, then the sheet gasket, then compress the gasket and snap in the other E-clip so the gasket is attached to the shaft tightly.
It should seal....but I can add a dab of high temp RTV as well.
This material should be in my hands next week. If it has the range of motion I think it does.....45 durometer shore 00...is VERY soft and stretchy.....It should have no problem with the range of motion.
The two things I really would like to know is:
1. Once someone finds out what the REAL temperature range is....it would be nice to know. The sheet material is good to 390F. I can get some that is slightly higher temp but the cost goes up a bit.
2. An estimate of how much drag the actuating rod puts on the throttle. I can kind of estimate that with the valve assembled.
When this is done I will get several of each part to both the person who sent me the valve...and some to SGKent and Hoody.
And if the person that sent me the valve is happy with the returned valve and it functions properly and solves his problem....I will ask if I can have the original diaphragm....and return it to Steve.
Ray[/b] |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 12:52 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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sounds good Ray. I'll remember to take my IR gun with me when we take the bus out tomorrow to test the temp.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| sounds good Ray. I'll remember to take my IR gun with me when we take the bus out tomorrow to test the temp. |
Thank you Steve!
I should have pictures of the valve parts up tomorrow. Nothing earthshaking...but really wanted to show how that flex joint and the imaginary half o-ring came into being.
I actually struggled like mad to visualize that when I had your original part in hand....because....you see from the dome side a perfect flex joint like one might see molded in..OK.
The other side you see what looks and "feels" like a molded in D-ring...but the two coincided....and would have made for an insanely 3-D mold....and there was no material thickness change... ...which should have been dinging bells in my head. Just could not wrap my mind around its cross section. Ray |
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Hoody
Samba Member
Joined: November 28, 2007
Posts: 1948
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| Posted: Sat Sep 30, 2017 8:20 pm Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Nice work Ray! Very impressive! It sure looks very promising! If it doesn't work the first time I have no doubt this will be resolved before long. I was thinking today about the body's. On ones that are not completely toast which I would think most are not....once the lapping is done in the corroded areas my thought is to have the insides and outsides ceramic coated. This will prevent further corrosion and will definitely stand up to the heat. I have a friend who is a guru at ceramic coating. Thoughts? |
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raygreenwood
Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Sun Oct 01, 2017 9:54 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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| Hoody wrote: |
| Nice work Ray! Very impressive! It sure looks very promising! If it doesn't work the first time I have no doubt this will be resolved before long. I was thinking today about the body's. On ones that are not completely toast which I would think most are not....once the lapping is done in the corroded areas my thought is to have the insides and outsides ceramic coated. This will prevent further corrosion and will definitely stand up to the heat. I have a friend who is a guru at ceramic coating. Thoughts? |
I was just getting into the valve seat yesterday. As you no doubt know...that little self locking 7mm-ish nut is a b*tch to get off.
SGKent and other are correct in their thoughts that the main issue with the valve seat is corrosion mixed with erosion. I do not think heat alone is the main issue. Its a combination pf uncombusted crap that corrodes with moisture and basic carbon build up.
Yes...ceramic coating would be nice and should work well...but I am almost thinking that if the seat of the valve could be reamed lightly to make the seating surface a little more round instead of conical....you could basically take a bronze ball....drill a hole in it...and screw it onto the shaft and stake it in place.
Its not like this seal must resist a lot of gas pressure. It just has to seal at above 95%....keeping any significant exhaust from entering when not wanted and keeping any significant vacuum from passing through.
I say significant....because even though we KNOW these systems must be vacuum tight and we work hard at it....none of them are perfect. There are very tiny leaks in all of these systems.... somewhere. They are just below the threshold of system response. So at best we get perfect seal...and at worst we get nearly perfect seal...below the threshold of mattering at all.
And...perhaps a sealing ball that has very high anti-corrosive properties...that could simply be swapped out every 2-3 years ...along with a new diaphragm and graphite gasket....could keep these operating forever?
Ray |
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MGBBob80
Samba Member
Joined: April 05, 2009
Posts: 128
Location: Bremerton, WA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:57 am Post subject: Re: EGR Demand in California |
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I am interested in purchasing one of your new EGR valves when they become available. Many thanks!
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Cheers,
Bob
1978 Type 2 Transporter. 2L engine (engine code GE), Fuel Injection, 4-speed manual transmission.His name is Buddy.
"I reserve the right to be better tomorrow than I am today." |
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