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SGKent 
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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 Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:33 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| Reading over a few years of threads on here, Type 1 engines seem to drop more intake valves than exhaust valves. It's no wonder, as the tin pieces most commonly left off ALL relate to over-cooling of the intake valves. |
Robbie - I see you have been talking with Colin. The general problem that occurred on T1 heads were cracks between seats, and #3 exhaust dropping because of the loss of cooling pre-doghouse cooler. Colin told me he felt that the thermal shock was worse on intakes but in the thousands of heads we did in the shop for all makes of cars including air cooled, I never once saw one where an intake valve head dropped off, or even stretch. I have seen intake seats come loose with age but not on a Type 1 head. If an intake was messed up it was either due to a floated valve, loose piston crown, broken rod etc., or broken spring. It is almost in-heard of. If it happens to you, buy a lottery ticket. Those were my observations, yours may be different. 
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:42 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Quote: |
| Reading over a few years of threads on here, Type 1 engines seem to drop more intake valves than exhaust valves. It's no wonder, as the tin pieces most commonly left off ALL relate to over-cooling of the intake valves. |
Robbie - I see you have been talking with Colin. The general problem that occurred on T1 heads were cracks between seats, and #3 exhaust dropping because of the loss of cooling pre-doghouse cooler. Colin told me he felt that the thermal shock was worse on intakes but in the thousands of heads we did in the shop for all makes of cars including air cooled, I never once saw one where an intake valve head dropped off, or even stretch. I have seen intake seats come loose with age but not on a Type 1 head. If an intake was messed up it was either due to a floated valve, loose piston crown, broken rod etc., or broken spring. It is almost in-heard of. If it happens to you, buy a lottery ticket. Those were my observations, yours may be different. |
Talking to Colin? Yes. About clutch release arms and synthetic wheel bearing grease…
My experience with intake valves is working on customer cars that drop intake seats without proper tin. With all proper tin, I've seen a good more exhaust valve issues, not seat issues. My first personal engine dropped an intake valve around 40k miles, and I discovered that the cylinder tins did not have the "wedge" diverting parts that give more cooling to the exhausts and less to the intakes.
There are two separate tin pieces that divert more are to the exhaust valve sections of the heads, and less to the intake valve area. There is the "wedge" in the cylinder tin that I was missing. Clarke @ Awesome Powdercoat calls them "cylinder tin air vanes:"
http://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/cylinder_air_vanes.html
Then there is the square deflector tin under the head that prevents even more air from over-cooling the intake valve metal on the head. Clarke calls these the "cylinder head internal deflector." 3 out of 4 engines I work on are missing this piece.
http://www.awesomepowdercoat.com/Cylinder_head_internal_deflectors.html
Again, I've only seen these issues on maybe five engines. But five engines? That's enough to be concerned. I adjusted my valves religiously and always kept the CHT's under 400, even if that meant slowing down and downshifting.
My thought is that the dissimilar heat between intake and exhaust valve seats needs to be homogenized, which VW did by reducing cooling air flow to the intake region of the head. This isn't someone teaching me, this is the college student in me treating the original engineering as the "primary source" of information regarding design. I thank my college professors every time I look at the car and discover new elements of design. The dual port tin features the 'cylinder tin air vanes' but the single port tin does not. This tells me that VW knew the intake charge of the DP engine was enough to warrant extra cooling diversion towards the exhaust. Due to the venturi effect, the intake charge is cooler than any cooing air.
And due to my bus being quite enjoyable, I think I'll go for a drive!
Robbie
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telford dorr
Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 3555
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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| Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 11:22 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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I always figured that those tins between the intakes would enhance cooling by preventing air leaking out there and being wasted, without passing over the head fins (think: Hoover bit), and that the lower tins forced cooling air over the bottoms of the cylinders. Actually, all of the tins (except maybe the lower splash shields) seem designed to fit tightly over the heads and cylinders, to force air through the fins.
Interesting...
One thing I've noticed, in general, regarding type 1 heads: there seems to be a lot of casting flash between fins that would only improve things by being removed. Seems a couple of hours with a Dremel tool and some long shaft burrs detailing the heads could improve the situation remarkably. Just a thought...
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More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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SGKent
Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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actually removing the flash is something left up to the mechanic or head builder. On his T4 heads Len cleans that up. I used a dremel on my stock RIMCO rebuilt heads to clean them up before running them. If air can't get thru it is going to run hot in that area. The tin inside the heads is there to force that air thru other slots. Colin had one on Chloe fall out recently. He found a junk head, and used the tin from that to put back in his.
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vwjetboat
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Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 1:27 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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exhaust valves drop due to in old days.. crappy valves.. poor valve adjustment.. new valves solved that...
Intake valves drop due to BAD GAS nothing else... |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 12728
Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:16 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
| Intake valves drop due to BAD GAS nothing else... |
So you've maintained every VW engine ever, and you know for certain that the intake valves failed did so exclusively due to bad gas? Give me a break… Authoritative statements like that aren't worth the paper they're printed on.
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vwjetboat
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Joined: May 11, 2017
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Location: Florida
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:22 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
| Intake valves drop due to BAD GAS nothing else... |
So you've maintained every VW engine ever, and you know for certain that the intake valves failed did so exclusively due to bad gas? Give me a break… Authoritative statements like that aren't worth the paper they're printed on. |
so you think intake valves like bad gas ? I have had to pull the heads off many cars that sat for long times because the they were cranked up without the fuel system flushed.. and guess what happens ? the varnish hits the intakes and they stick open.. this is ALL CARS vws included.. yes they can drop a seat.. but if you have a perfectly good working engine.. park it.. and 6 months or year later you get in and crank up and a valve sticks.. it was because of BAD GAS.. bad gas = bad gas.. not cheap gas.. old gas.. bad gas.. |
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vwjetboat
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 9:26 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| I wonder if some even understand what the oil bath is for.. im guessing to make the butter fly work easier huh ? lol |
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airschooled
Air-Schooled
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
so you think intake valves like bad gas ? |
No, I'm saying there are dozens of reasons an intake valve or seat can fail. It's bad practice to make one statement like that in a public forum where many new members come to learn. It's more helpful to say things like "one way intake valves can fail is due to deposits from bad gas."
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vwjetboat
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| Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 10:06 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| asiab3 wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
so you think intake valves like bad gas ? |
No, I'm saying there are dozens of reasons an intake valve or seat can fail. It's bad practice to make one statement like that in a public forum where many new members come to learn. It's more helpful to say things like "one way intake valves can fail is due to deposits from bad gas." |
And.. ON VWS especially.. bad gas & no oil bath.. = stuck intake valves.. every time.. |
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westysmb
Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2017
Posts: 65
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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I know its not the best picture, but this is what I could get with the angle and oil bath stand in the way.
I tried spraying carb cleaner, letting it soak, and tapping the valve stem end with a drift and hammer. Unfortunately it didn't shut. It doesn't seem to look anything like TCash's bad valve seat picture, but I could be looking at it wrong.
Any other easy ideas/recommendations before I resort to pulling the engine?
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westysmb
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Joined: July 06, 2017
Posts: 65
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:10 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
| I wonder if some even understand what the oil bath is for.. im guessing to make the butter fly work easier huh ? lol |
While the bus doesn't have a oil bath right now, I've been trying to source one locally.
I found an intake tube at a swap meet from this past weekend, but couldn't find an air cleaner itself. There is another swap meet at the end of the month that I'm going to. If I can't find one there, then I'll buy it from someone here on the forum.
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richparker
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Joined: November 24, 2011
Posts: 6986
Location: Durango, CO
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 6:53 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| actually removing the flash is something left up to the mechanic or head builder. |
This is really not the case on "good" T1 heads these days. Since CB released the Panchino heads, which have the flashing 100% cleared, some of the other large T1 head manufacturers had to follow suit or be left behind. Ray Mofoco has 2 threads in the engine forum discussing how he stepped up his game to keep up with CB and Autolina has done the same. Although Autolina casts the Panchino heads the mold and its rights belong to it are CB. But...none the less removing flashing from a "quality" T1 is becoming a thing of the past. Thanks CB for stepping up for us.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:54 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
so you think intake valves like bad gas ? |
No, I'm saying there are dozens of reasons an intake valve or seat can fail. It's bad practice to make one statement like that in a public forum where many new members come to learn. It's more helpful to say things like "one way intake valves can fail is due to deposits from bad gas." |
And.. ON VWS especially.. bad gas & no oil bath.. = stuck intake valves.. every time.. |
What?
I think you need to get your terminology and examples a little more straight and clear.
........are you saying you believe that ACVW's run without oil bath air cleaners are prone to valve issues......or are you saying that without a proper "bath" of oil in the rocker boxes.....they were prone to valve problems?
While I can agree....that ACVW's that have fuel varnish on the valves CAN br prone to valve sticking in the guides....yes...I have seen that too....rarely......but have seen it.......however the type of air cleaner the engine is using has no effect on this.
For example all of the VW type 4 engines with 1.7L and D-jet injection from about october of 1972 through early 1975 with L-jet 1.8L engines.....had pleated paper filter elements from the factory. No running or longevity issues at all....and certainly no valve issues.
Just saying that your comment of "no oil bath" makes no sense. Ray |
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[email protected]
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Joined: August 15, 2002
Posts: 4394
Location: Brew City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 7:59 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| richparker wrote: |
| SGKent wrote: |
| actually removing the flash is something left up to the mechanic or head builder. |
This is really not the case on "good" T1 heads these days. Since CB released the Panchino heads, which have the flashing 100% cleared, some of the other large T1 head manufacturers had to follow suit or be left behind. Ray Mofoco has 2 threads in the engine forum discussing how he stepped up his game to keep up with CB and Autolina has done the same. Although Autolina casts the Panchino heads the mold and its rights belong to it are CB. But...none the less removing flashing from a "quality" T1 is becoming a thing of the past. Thanks CB for stepping up for us. |
Actually my father developed our cylinder head casting in the mid 90's. After producing tens of thousands of cylinder heads, the mold was beginning to wear out. We didn't and never have had any over heating issues due to excessive casting flash but perception is reality so we started machining more through holes during the building process. The key to our heads is the extra cooling fins and total fin surface area. This is why CB came out with an updated casting almost 20 years after us.
What I did need to do was update our ports to flow better so instead of having to port and polish them, they would flow well right out of the mold. We now have the best flowing as cast cylinder heads on the market, from stock 35.5mm x 32 all the way to 42mm x 37.5mm. CB needs to CNC port their heads to get the big flow numbers and they also charge quite a bit for that work. They offer some great heads but they cost $1100-$1800. My goal with our heads was offer affordable, great flowing, great cooling, Made in the USA cylinder heads for stock and street performance applications. Our heads range from $460 to $740 for a pair.
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vwjetboat
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Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
so you think intake valves like bad gas ? |
No, I'm saying there are dozens of reasons an intake valve or seat can fail. It's bad practice to make one statement like that in a public forum where many new members come to learn. It's more helpful to say things like "one way intake valves can fail is due to deposits from bad gas." |
And.. ON VWS especially.. bad gas & no oil bath.. = stuck intake valves.. every time.. |
What?
I think you need to get your terminology and examples a little more straight and clear.
........are you saying you believe that ACVW's run without oil bath air cleaners are prone to valve issues......or are you saying that without a proper "bath" of oil in the rocker boxes.....they were prone to valve problems?
While I can agree....that ACVW's that have fuel varnish on the valves CAN br prone to valve sticking in the guides....yes...I have seen that too....rarely......but have seen it.......however the type of air cleaner the engine is using has no effect on this.
For example all of the VW type 4 engines with 1.7L and D-jet injection from about october of 1972 through early 1975 with L-jet 1.8L engines.....had pleated paper filter elements from the factory. No running or longevity issues at all....and certainly no valve issues.
Just saying that your comment of "no oil bath" makes no sense. Ray |
no.. what I am saying is any car with old stale gas can cause intakes to stick ... now.. do you fully understand why there is an oil bath ? and its job ? its to lube the intake valves.. so .. you take 2 bugs.. both same identical.. but one has oil bath.. other has chrome air cleaner.. put 1 year old stale gas in both.. the one with the oil bath might live.. the other one.. will not.. the intakes will stick.. now if I am not correct in what the oil bath is for.. please explain.. out side of catching dirt.. why did vw use oil bath ? |
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Tcash
Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011
Posts: 12844
Location: San Jose, California, USA
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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Looks like you have a Dropped valve seat.
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| vwjetboat wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
| asiab3 wrote: |
| vwjetboat wrote: |
so you think intake valves like bad gas ? |
No, I'm saying there are dozens of reasons an intake valve or seat can fail. It's bad practice to make one statement like that in a public forum where many new members come to learn. It's more helpful to say things like "one way intake valves can fail is due to deposits from bad gas." |
And.. ON VWS especially.. bad gas & no oil bath.. = stuck intake valves.. every time.. |
What?
I think you need to get your terminology and examples a little more straight and clear.
........are you saying you believe that ACVW's run without oil bath air cleaners are prone to valve issues......or are you saying that without a proper "bath" of oil in the rocker boxes.....they were prone to valve problems?
While I can agree....that ACVW's that have fuel varnish on the valves CAN br prone to valve sticking in the guides....yes...I have seen that too....rarely......but have seen it.......however the type of air cleaner the engine is using has no effect on this.
For example all of the VW type 4 engines with 1.7L and D-jet injection from about october of 1972 through early 1975 with L-jet 1.8L engines.....had pleated paper filter elements from the factory. No running or longevity issues at all....and certainly no valve issues.
Just saying that your comment of "no oil bath" makes no sense. Ray |
no.. what I am saying is any car with old stale gas can cause intakes to stick ... now.. do you fully understand why there is an oil bath ? and its job ? its to lube the intake valves.. so .. you take 2 bugs.. both same identical.. but one has oil bath.. other has chrome air cleaner.. put 1 year old stale gas in both.. the one with the oil bath might live.. the other one.. will not.. the intakes will stick.. now if I am not correct in what the oil bath is for.. please explain.. out side of catching dirt.. why did vw use oil bath ? |
Sorry....you are 100% incorrect in your hypothesis as to why VW used an oil bath air cleaner.
They used it because they were making cars from the 1930's onward. In the 1930-s and through the 40s at least...virtually all cars and especially trucks and industrial vehicles used an oil bath..... or more precisely stated.....a venturi/centrifugal oil type air cleaner. Most of the rest used an oiled gauze air cleaner.
They used these because:
A. The paper or dry elements of the day were not yet advanced enough to even MATCH oil bath cleaners in effectiveness.
B. It could be renewed or cleaned ANYWHERE without having to buy an element. Just sash in gas, diesel or any solvent and re-fill. This allowed using the same production air cleaner from desert to big city on any continent.
C. While oil bath air cleaners not the best for extreme high velocity, high performance flow......because if you size it for high flow numbers.....the centrifugal/enertia based inital change of direction of the airflow used in all oil bath filters as the large partical removal method.....does not work well at idle and low rpm.......aside from that....the filtration level to flow ratio far exceeded what dry filter media and oiled gauze filters could produce up until the 1960s.
D. It was cheaper.
The vast maiority or later L-jet injected bugs....also used pleated filters. No issues with varnish at the valves.
Virtually every car I have worked on and owned...aside from most ACVW'S....have had dry filter elements.....and have no issues with fuel and valve guide varnish.....whether fuel injected or carbed.
Ray |
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vwjetboat
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Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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I guess some where in all that explanation.. you forgot one thing.. I was talking about bad gas.. and obviously you never worked on an engine that has been cranked up with a tank full of varnish.. I have.. dozens.. happens when you work in a used car lot..
o and oil baths help lube the intake valves.. or I guess oil baths stay full and never lose any oil.. ? |
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westysmb
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Joined: July 06, 2017
Posts: 65
Location: San Antonio, TX
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| Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:26 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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| Tcash wrote: |
Looks like you have a Dropped valve seat.
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Thanks Tcash. So my understanding is the next step would be to pull the engine and remove the head? I've never pulled an engine or taken a cylinder head off of any vehicle prior to this, so its all a learning experience.
Is the valve seat something I can do myself or does it need to be left to an engine builder?
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