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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 9:56 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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vwjetboat wrote: |
oil baths stay full and never lose any oil.. ? |
Correct.
Sincerely,
20,000 on one service, and the oil stayed exactly where I filled it. _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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vwjetboat Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2017 Posts: 1732 Location: Florida
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:08 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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so for 30 years I was thinking they actually help lube the intake guides.. out side of great dust catchers.. and I was wrong? that will suck.. |
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westysmb Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2017 Posts: 65 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:09 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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Busdaddy, I have the Bentley on hand, but thanks for the other 2 links! _________________ 1970 Westfalia with a late Sportsmobile top |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:11 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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westysmb wrote: |
Busdaddy, I have the Bentley on hand, but thanks for the other 2 links! |
The Wilson book is a must have, the idiot book isn't much help technically, but explains engine removal and other jobs very well. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
Слава Україні! |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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westysmb Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2017 Posts: 65 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:49 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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busdaddy wrote: |
westysmb wrote: |
Busdaddy, I have the Bentley on hand, but thanks for the other 2 links! |
The Wilson book is a must have, the idiot book isn't much help technically, but explains engine removal and other jobs very well. |
Good to know. I'll pick up both of the other books asap. _________________ 1970 Westfalia with a late Sportsmobile top |
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westysmb Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2017 Posts: 65 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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Thanks for the youtube links. I do already have a hardback Bentley. I'll be reading through it this weekend and watching these videos. _________________ 1970 Westfalia with a late Sportsmobile top |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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Once you decide on a plan of attack, let us know.
For instance, Bentley deals with new parts and cars mostly, and they won't mention that your cylinder head nuts might be rusted, so as soon as you get the engine out you should soak the upper nuts (and all exhaust nuts) in PB'Laster or Liquid Wrench a day before attempting to loosen them at least.
Tom Wilson has excellent photographs and instructions for dealing with and inspecting used parts. Highly recommended.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:16 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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vwjetboat wrote: |
I guess some where in all that explanation.. you forgot one thing.. I was talking about bad gas.. and obviously you never worked on an engine that has been cranked up with a tank full of varnish.. I have.. dozens.. happens when you work in a used car lot..
o and oil baths help lube the intake valves.. or I guess oil baths stay full and never lose any oil.. ? |
I have worked on many cars that have had bad gas and cranked up ...it makes no difference whatsoever.
Fuel varnishing of items like valves, guides and pumps is NOT an instant thing...caused by cranking up an otherwise clean engine and instantly getting varnish that freezes the valves it happens over time.
Most valve varnish is caused by excessive amounts of fuel getting pushed back up the guides during the valve open cycle.
This excessive fuel can be caused by anything from running rich from poor tuning, filthy carbs, sinking floats.......and....most especially.... in the case of using crappy non-stock air cleaners...due to the fact that most cheap aftermarket air cleaners that fit under the hood of a beetle....are restrictive because they are too small.
It has been a common issue over the years that once those start to get plugged up a little....they run rich because they cannot get enough air.
Add to that...sloppy valve to guide tolerance and high head temps...and you get can get varnish between valve and guide.
Yes...it can get a little worse faster if you have "old" gas....but if that gas still burns and runs...its not hanging around to varnish your valves....unless there is too much fuel up in the guides anyway from the issues I just listed.
Also....ACVW's with a horizontal engine...have "0" need for oil on the guides from the intake charge side. They do not have stem seals and have TONS of oil in the guides just from the rocker boxes. So much so...that in later years it became a hydrocarbon emissions issue on some older engines with guide wear.
Yes....the oil bath cleaner does put a SMALL amount of oil into the intake air.
Most state that the oil level in the oil bath does not go down over time....but stays the same...and that is incorrect. It "seems" to stay the same...because its filling up with dirt and dust.....
Bearing in mind....that it defies the laws of physics..... to be able to fill up a PERFECTLY CLEAN oil bath air cleaner....exactly to the line........and then 10k miles later....still find the oil "seemingly" exactly to the line or close enough for government work.....AND...find a 1/32" to 1/8th" deep layer of silt and dust on the bottom when you clean it out.
You cannot add that much dirt and not displace the oil and make the level higher.....laws of physics.
So where does the oil go? Through the engine.....as VAPOR. Not droplets...and not even micro-droplets.
Its widely known among those who drive D-jet injected cars with oil bath air cleaners....that over a period usually of about 30k miles...this vapor heavily oils up the insides of both the MPS and the the electric pot style AAR used on both late type 3 and all type 4 cars.
If you drive high miles in winter in very clean low dust areas.....where you are not adding enough dust and grit to bring up the oil level as it slowly gets whipped up in the "coir" area of the filter system and sucked out through the engineas vapor .....you can watch the oil level drop.
Ray |
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westysmb Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2017 Posts: 65 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 11:26 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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asiab3 wrote: |
Once you decide on a plan of attack, let us know.
For instance, Bentley deals with new parts and cars mostly, and they won't mention that your cylinder head nuts might be rusted, so as soon as you get the engine out you should soak the upper nuts (and all exhaust nuts) in PB'Laster or Liquid Wrench a day before attempting to loosen them at least.
Tom Wilson has excellent photographs and instructions for dealing with and inspecting used parts. Highly recommended.
Robbie |
I'll definitely let y'all know when I figure out what I'm doing. I've found a Barnes & Noble that has Wilson's book in stock, so I'm going to head over there this afternoon to pick it up. _________________ 1970 Westfalia with a late Sportsmobile top |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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westysmb wrote: |
asiab3 wrote: |
Once you decide on a plan of attack, let us know.
For instance, Bentley deals with new parts and cars mostly, and they won't mention that your cylinder head nuts might be rusted, so as soon as you get the engine out you should soak the upper nuts (and all exhaust nuts) in PB'Laster or Liquid Wrench a day before attempting to loosen them at least.
Tom Wilson has excellent photographs and instructions for dealing with and inspecting used parts. Highly recommended.
Robbie |
I'll definitely let y'all know when I figure out what I'm doing. I've found a Barnes & Noble that has Wilson's book in stock, so I'm going to head over there this afternoon to pick it up. |
You won't be sorry. Give it a read and ask if you have any questions.
Good luck
Tcash |
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mikedjames Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2012 Posts: 2714 Location: Hamble, Hampshire, UK
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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If you have sufficient blowby producing an oil haze in the engine, this is what keeps the oil bath topped up via the breather hose...
It also does a good job of keeping rust at bay when sprayed off the crank pulley.
Now I have a "newer" engine stuff has started rusting around the engine. _________________ Ancient vehicles and vessels
1974 VW T2 : Devon Eurovette camper with 1641 DP T1 engine, Progressive carb, full flow oil cooler, EDIS crank timed ignition.
Engine 1: 40k miles (rocker shaft clip fell off), Engine 2: 30k miles (rebuild, dropped valve). Engine 3: a JK Preservation Parts "new" engine, aluminium case: 26k miles: new top end.
Gearbox rebuild 2021 by Bears.
1979 Westerly GK24 24 foot racer/cruiser yacht Forethought of Gosport.
1973 wooden Pacer sailing dinghy |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Fri Sep 08, 2017 10:41 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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raygreenwood wrote: |
Most state that the oil level in the oil bath does not go down over time....but stays the same...and that is incorrect. It "seems" to stay the same...because its filling up with dirt and dust..... |
Good point!
Robbie
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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raygreenwood Samba Member
Joined: November 24, 2008 Posts: 21474 Location: Oklahoma City
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Posted: Sat Sep 09, 2017 10:07 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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mikedjames wrote: |
If you have sufficient blowby producing an oil haze in the engine, this is what keeps the oil bath topped up via the breather hose...
It also does a good job of keeping rust at bay when sprayed off the crank pulley.
Now I have a "newer" engine stuff has started rusting around the engine. |
Such an optimist!
Maybe you need to produce and sell...the "anti rust" crank pulley seal.....with a skillfully applied, very small hole to produce a very very fine mist of oil designed to keep rust at bay!
I jest....but you know...if you made this....SOMEONE would buy it!
Ray |
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westysmb Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2017 Posts: 65 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:53 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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Engine will (hopefully) be coming out this weekend pending harbor freight has what I need in stock.
Now the question becomes how to approach this. I've been reading through some threads and it seems like a motorcycle jack is well recommended?
https://www.harborfreight.com/1500-lb-Capacity-ATVMotorcycle-Lift-60536.html
This is the one I've been looking at. Will I need to add anything to the jack for support (plywood, etc) or can the engine just sit on it the way it is?
I've also seen some posts about this table cart.
https://www.harborfreight.com/500-lb-capacity-hydraulic-table-cart-60730.html
Is it possible to get the entire table cart under the bus to pull the engine? If it does fit under the bus, would this be better since I can just leave the engine on the cart and work on it without having to move it to another table/sawhorse set up? _________________ 1970 Westfalia with a late Sportsmobile top |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12688 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:05 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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Both of those jack options make pulling a Type 1 engine very easy. But they differ slightly:
The lifting table doesn't work for the engine alone, since the mustache bar gets in the way and it doesn't go low enough to clear the rear apron supports. But it works very well for pulling the engine and transaxle together. It also goes much higher for using it as a work surface. You'll want wood or cardboard on top to allow the case/trans a little wiggle room without shearing off tins/magnesium.
The ATV jack fits the T1 case nicely, and it has rubber top "feet" that prevent anything from chafing. The feet are the correct width for the T1 engine, and the jack goes VERY low, to allow even a dual port engine to clear the apron supports. It functions well as an engine work table too, but if you're going to torque the flywheel, you'll want to have a helper or two holding it to ensure it doesn't topple.
Of course, people have been pulling them with floor jacks and plywood for decades. My personal favorite was sticking some milk crates under the loose engine and pushing the bus forward in the parking lot of a Dollar General.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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westysmb Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2017 Posts: 65 Location: San Antonio, TX
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:52 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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asiab3 wrote: |
Both of those jack options make pulling a Type 1 engine very easy. But they differ slightly:
The lifting table doesn't work for the engine alone, since the mustache bar gets in the way and it doesn't go low enough to clear the rear apron supports. But it works very well for pulling the engine and transaxle together. It also goes much higher for using it as a work surface. You'll want wood or cardboard on top to allow the case/trans a little wiggle room without shearing off tins/magnesium.
The ATV jack fits the T1 case nicely, and it has rubber top "feet" that prevent anything from chafing. The feet are the correct width for the T1 engine, and the jack goes VERY low, to allow even a dual port engine to clear the apron supports. It functions well as an engine work table too, but if you're going to torque the flywheel, you'll want to have a helper or two holding it to ensure it doesn't topple.
Of course, people have been pulling them with floor jacks and plywood for decades. My personal favorite was sticking some milk crates under the loose engine and pushing the bus forward in the parking lot of a Dollar General.
Robbie |
Thanks for the info. I think I'm going to go with the ATV jack since I want to pull the engine alone.
Have to love when you use the resources that are at your disposal at that moment to get the job done! Sure can't beat experiences like that. _________________ 1970 Westfalia with a late Sportsmobile top |
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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7527 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 11:57 am Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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FWIW,
I had a motor just recently stick an intake valve after being started up with old gas.
Stuck it on it's maiden voyage..
(Bent it good, too.. )
Gas was about 1 1/2 years old?
This was a motor that just had been refreshed, and the heads were pulled apart to check the valve job and lap them in.
So, they weren't even new guides - but a few thousand miles use only.
Nothing to blame there but the gas,
Because the same combo had been together and working fine before..
Also suspect was the age-old procedure I had always done - putting a dab of grease on the stems.
I'm still not 100% convinced that was part of the issue; have seen that work too many times to count,
And built a couple dozen successful motors that way m'self.. But still.
Will be using oil only next time.
The old-timer I trust says oil only.
FWIW to our OP...
Watch carefully for the hidden pitfalls! _________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22416 Location: Escondido CA
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Posted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 1:01 pm Post subject: Re: Type 1 push rod (fell?) off rocker arm |
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Clatter wrote: |
FWIW,
I had a motor just recently stick an intake valve after being started up with old gas.
Stuck it on it's maiden voyage..
(Bent it good, too.. )
Gas was about 1 1/2 years old?
This was a motor that just had been refreshed, and the heads were pulled apart to check the valve job and lap them in.
So, they weren't even new guides - but a few thousand miles use only.
Nothing to blame there but the gas,
Because the same combo had been together and working fine before..
Also suspect was the age-old procedure I had always done - putting a dab of grease on the stems.
I'm still not 100% convinced that was part of the issue; have seen that work too many times to count,
And built a couple dozen successful motors that way m'self.. But still.
Will be using oil only next time.
The old-timer I trust says oil only.
FWIW to our OP...
Watch carefully for the hidden pitfalls! |
Just pulled the tank in my 64 notch after dumping the 1.5 year old gas in it. Not for the valve thing per say but just because its shit by then. Cleaning the deposits out too
BEFORE I start up the purdy thing I just built.
_________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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