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78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating
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smitty1976bus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:21 pm    Post subject: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

Hi all, hope this is a stupid question with a super simple answer Very Happy

Had knee surgery about 2 months ago, and am finally strong enough to drive the stick shift bus.... only it won't start at all..... I turn the key to the start position, and nothing happens. I can hear the fuel pump kick on, so the starter is getting power... Here's what i know and have done:

-Battery is fully charged
-The starter has power from the battery
-The red/black wire delivers power when the key is put to the start position
-When you jump the starter, it turns over

--I even swapped it out with my spare starter, which I know is good
--I re-wired the end of the red/black wire, thinking it might be shorting out

I am fresh out of ideas... Has anyone ever come across this issue before? I'm stumped because I hear the fuel pump kick on; does the double relay get it's power right from the starter, or does the red/black wire spit away before the starter? If that's the case, I assume that there is a short somewhere after that split....... Very frustrating! I just want to drive my bus before the summer is over!!!!
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:23 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

Pull the plug off the bottom of the ignition switch at the base of the column and jump between the red and red/black wires to test, your switch may be on the way out.
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smitty1976bus
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:25 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

Just tried it, same outcome. The fuel pump turns on, but no starter operation....

This is so strange..... The red/black wire delivers 12.5 volts to the starter when the key is turned the starting position. In turn, the fuel pump turns on..... I know the solenoid is ok, because if I jump the 30 and 50 terminals, the starter engages...

The only thing I can think of is the red/black wire is shorting out somewhere, so it doesn't have enough amps to engage the starter solenoid, but has enough to activate the double relay/fuel pump.... I'll have to run a new wire from the column to the starter.... dang

So wierd. This bus is plagued with wicked strange stuff...
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busdaddy
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

If it was shorting you'd get smoke form the ignition switch, it's nearly a direct shot to the starter aside from the rectangular white connector on top of the steering column brace, if that joint is clean and tight you may just have a weak starter (or two).
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

smitty1976bus wrote:
the red/black wire is shorting out somewhere

It is more likely a bad connection.
This is for a 72 but will give you the idea.
Clean the connections at the fuse box and the two 'T' connector the Red/black wire go through.
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Good luck
Tcash
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SGKent Premium Member
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

check the engine case to ground when you turn the key. See if the voltage suddenly shoots up. That will mean the ground strap is bad. If the ground strap is good, try these tests - block the wheels and make sure in neutral so you don't get run over. :

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TomWesty
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:56 am    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

Like Busdaddy says, shorts cause sparks, smoke and melted wires. Open circuits or high resistance circuits due to corrosion can cause the symptoms you are seeing. My first check would be where the ground strap from the battery contacts the body. It might look good at the battery end and even look good on the topside of the body end, but it could be very corroded between the body and the cable. Unbolt it and shine up the cable end and sand the area on the body where the cable contacts it until that is shiny as well. Be prepared for the bolt to be so corroded that it will break before it loosens.
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smitty1976bus
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:20 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

Pulling my hair out since I got off work this evening; this starter is killng me, haha.

SGKent Wrote:
Quote:
check the engine case to ground when you turn the key. See if the voltage suddenly shoots up.


Gave that a try, and no sudden volt spikes. Although the trans to chasis ground was a little beat up, so I cleaned it up a little bit, good call TomWesty; made no difference tho Crying or Very sad . Also tried jumping the starter again; the stater sprung to life! So the starter seems to be ok.

Love'n the Bentley wiring diagram TCash, I've been looking at it so much that when I close my eyes I still see it, haha. Good call on the fuse box, I hadn't tried that yet. I made sure that all fuses were seated properly, and all the hot fuses were at least 12 volts. I also made sure the T connector was tight. All looked good.. Still no start.

This is where it gets weird. I poked my volt meter into the T connector, which the red/black wire goes through, and wanted to see if there was a drop in volts, or anything strange, going on through the red/black wire when I turn the key to start. Only when I turned the key, the dang starter worked! I don't get it... Unless the red/black wire was falling out of the T connector somehow. I did notice that there was a slight delay between turning the key to start and having the starter actually engage. So I'm still a little stumped. I don't like it when things just start working randomly.. I know this isn't that last I've had with this problem..

Thanks everyone!
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:35 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid. Once the starter moves once the brushes will make better contact and from that point on the starter may work better. If the brushes are overly worn or seized in their holders this effect will be short lived.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

I made sure that all fuses were seated properly
The Red and Red/white wires are not fused. You need to clean the terminals they plug onto.

I also made sure the T connector was tight.
Note there are two T connectors one by the switch and a 6 wire connector somewhere under the dash. It is brown on the wiring diagram.

I poked my volt meter into the T connector, when I turned the key, the dang starter worked!
This sounds like a bad connection. Spray with wd 40 and Pull the connector apart and clean it.

Wildthings wrote:
If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid.

The solenoid will still through the Pinion out. The motor just won't turn if the brushes where bad. He would be getting a clicking sound.

Good luck
Tcash
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:

Wildthings wrote:
If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid.

The solenoid will still through the Pinion out. The motor just won't turn if the brushes where bad. He would be getting a clicking sound.

Good luck
Tcash


The "pull in" coil grounds through the starter so will not do anything if the brushes don't make. The "hold in" coil will still work but isn't designed to be strong enough to pull the plunger in the solenoid back on its own.
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williamM
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:09 am    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

here's a stupid question (not knowing which knee was worked on)-- It's not an automatic is it??? they had a neutral lock out switch which can cause starting problem- but I'm in favor of that "T" connector being fouled.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:13 am    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

williamM wrote:
here's a stupid question (not knowing which knee was worked on)-- It's not an automatic is it??? they had a neutral lock out switch which can cause starting problem- but I'm in favor of that "T" connector being fouled.


I wondered the same but the OP wrote:

Quote:
and am finally strong enough to drive the stick shift bus

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Tcash
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:32 am    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Tcash wrote:

Wildthings wrote:
If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid.

The solenoid will still through the Pinion out. The motor just won't turn if the brushes where bad. He would be getting a clicking sound.

Good luck
Tcash


The "pull in" coil grounds through the starter so will not do anything if the brushes don't make. The "hold in" coil will still work but isn't designed to be strong enough to pull the plunger in the solenoid back on its own.

My mistake. I got the Pull in and Hold in windings mixed up.
Sorry
Tcash
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smitty1976bus
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating Reply with quote

I ended up taking the solenoid off of the starter, in hopes that it was the issue; but it works just fine. I take it that plunger pulls in and the starter shoots out to the flywheel. Just as Tcash and Wildthings mentioned.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Seems that the problem is indeed coming from under the dash, in the maze of wires. Seems to be 3 generations of novice electricians at work under there:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I starter by cutting all the zip ties, and freeing up the wires. I weeded out all the non-sense, the random wires hooked to nothing; then shortened up all the long wires. Also cleaned up that big T connector, and made sure it was nice and snug. Even with all the tidying up, it still looks like a mess under there, ha. But a little better:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The stater works like a charm now Very Happy So fingers crossed that I'll be able to drive it this weekend. Then I can move on to the 20 other problems that need addressing Very Happy
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