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smitty1976bus Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 369 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:21 pm Post subject: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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Hi all, hope this is a stupid question with a super simple answer
Had knee surgery about 2 months ago, and am finally strong enough to drive the stick shift bus.... only it won't start at all..... I turn the key to the start position, and nothing happens. I can hear the fuel pump kick on, so the starter is getting power... Here's what i know and have done:
-Battery is fully charged
-The starter has power from the battery
-The red/black wire delivers power when the key is put to the start position
-When you jump the starter, it turns over
--I even swapped it out with my spare starter, which I know is good
--I re-wired the end of the red/black wire, thinking it might be shorting out
I am fresh out of ideas... Has anyone ever come across this issue before? I'm stumped because I hear the fuel pump kick on; does the double relay get it's power right from the starter, or does the red/black wire spit away before the starter? If that's the case, I assume that there is a short somewhere after that split....... Very frustrating! I just want to drive my bus before the summer is over!!!! |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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Pull the plug off the bottom of the ignition switch at the base of the column and jump between the red and red/black wires to test, your switch may be on the way out. _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
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Слава Україні! |
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smitty1976bus Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 369 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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Just tried it, same outcome. The fuel pump turns on, but no starter operation....
This is so strange..... The red/black wire delivers 12.5 volts to the starter when the key is turned the starting position. In turn, the fuel pump turns on..... I know the solenoid is ok, because if I jump the 30 and 50 terminals, the starter engages...
The only thing I can think of is the red/black wire is shorting out somewhere, so it doesn't have enough amps to engage the starter solenoid, but has enough to activate the double relay/fuel pump.... I'll have to run a new wire from the column to the starter.... dang
So wierd. This bus is plagued with wicked strange stuff... |
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busdaddy Samba Member
Joined: February 12, 2004 Posts: 51057 Location: Surrey B.C. Canada, but thinking of Ukraine
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:37 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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If it was shorting you'd get smoke form the ignition switch, it's nearly a direct shot to the starter aside from the rectangular white connector on top of the steering column brace, if that joint is clean and tight you may just have a weak starter (or two). _________________ Rust NEVER sleeps and stock never goes out of style.
Please don't PM technical questions, ask your problem in public so everyone can play along. If you think it's too stupid post it here
Stop dead photo links! Post your photos to The Samba Gallery!
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 7:39 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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smitty1976bus wrote: |
the red/black wire is shorting out somewhere |
It is more likely a bad connection.
This is for a 72 but will give you the idea.
Clean the connections at the fuse box and the two 'T' connector the Red/black wire go through.
Good luck
Tcash |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Tue Sep 05, 2017 8:50 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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check the engine case to ground when you turn the key. See if the voltage suddenly shoots up. That will mean the ground strap is bad. If the ground strap is good, try these tests - block the wheels and make sure in neutral so you don't get run over. :
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 5:56 am Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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Like Busdaddy says, shorts cause sparks, smoke and melted wires. Open circuits or high resistance circuits due to corrosion can cause the symptoms you are seeing. My first check would be where the ground strap from the battery contacts the body. It might look good at the battery end and even look good on the topside of the body end, but it could be very corroded between the body and the cable. Unbolt it and shine up the cable end and sand the area on the body where the cable contacts it until that is shiny as well. Be prepared for the bolt to be so corroded that it will break before it loosens. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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smitty1976bus Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 369 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:20 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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Pulling my hair out since I got off work this evening; this starter is killng me, haha.
SGKent Wrote:
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check the engine case to ground when you turn the key. See if the voltage suddenly shoots up. |
Gave that a try, and no sudden volt spikes. Although the trans to chasis ground was a little beat up, so I cleaned it up a little bit, good call TomWesty; made no difference tho . Also tried jumping the starter again; the stater sprung to life! So the starter seems to be ok.
Love'n the Bentley wiring diagram TCash, I've been looking at it so much that when I close my eyes I still see it, haha. Good call on the fuse box, I hadn't tried that yet. I made sure that all fuses were seated properly, and all the hot fuses were at least 12 volts. I also made sure the T connector was tight. All looked good.. Still no start.
This is where it gets weird. I poked my volt meter into the T connector, which the red/black wire goes through, and wanted to see if there was a drop in volts, or anything strange, going on through the red/black wire when I turn the key to start. Only when I turned the key, the dang starter worked! I don't get it... Unless the red/black wire was falling out of the T connector somehow. I did notice that there was a slight delay between turning the key to start and having the starter actually engage. So I'm still a little stumped. I don't like it when things just start working randomly.. I know this isn't that last I've had with this problem..
Thanks everyone! |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid. Once the starter moves once the brushes will make better contact and from that point on the starter may work better. If the brushes are overly worn or seized in their holders this effect will be short lived. |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 8:51 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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I made sure that all fuses were seated properly
The Red and Red/white wires are not fused. You need to clean the terminals they plug onto.
I also made sure the T connector was tight.
Note there are two T connectors one by the switch and a 6 wire connector somewhere under the dash. It is brown on the wiring diagram.
I poked my volt meter into the T connector, when I turned the key, the dang starter worked!
This sounds like a bad connection. Spray with wd 40 and Pull the connector apart and clean it.
Wildthings wrote: |
If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid. |
The solenoid will still through the Pinion out. The motor just won't turn if the brushes where bad. He would be getting a clicking sound.
Good luck
Tcash |
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Wildthings Samba Member
Joined: March 13, 2005 Posts: 50261
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Posted: Wed Sep 06, 2017 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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Tcash wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid. |
The solenoid will still through the Pinion out. The motor just won't turn if the brushes where bad. He would be getting a clicking sound.
Good luck
Tcash |
The "pull in" coil grounds through the starter so will not do anything if the brushes don't make. The "hold in" coil will still work but isn't designed to be strong enough to pull the plunger in the solenoid back on its own. |
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williamM Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008 Posts: 4333 Location: southwest Arizona
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 6:09 am Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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here's a stupid question (not knowing which knee was worked on)-- It's not an automatic is it??? they had a neutral lock out switch which can cause starting problem- but I'm in favor of that "T" connector being fouled. _________________ some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 7:13 am Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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williamM wrote: |
here's a stupid question (not knowing which knee was worked on)-- It's not an automatic is it??? they had a neutral lock out switch which can cause starting problem- but I'm in favor of that "T" connector being fouled. |
I wondered the same but the OP wrote:
Quote: |
and am finally strong enough to drive the stick shift bus |
_________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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Tcash Samba Member
Joined: July 20, 2011 Posts: 12844 Location: San Jose, California, USA
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 8:32 am Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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Wildthings wrote: |
Tcash wrote: |
Wildthings wrote: |
If there is corrosion between the brushes and the commutator you may not get enough of a pull to move the plunder in the solenoid. |
The solenoid will still through the Pinion out. The motor just won't turn if the brushes where bad. He would be getting a clicking sound.
Good luck
Tcash |
The "pull in" coil grounds through the starter so will not do anything if the brushes don't make. The "hold in" coil will still work but isn't designed to be strong enough to pull the plunger in the solenoid back on its own. |
My mistake. I got the Pull in and Hold in windings mixed up.
Sorry
Tcash |
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smitty1976bus Samba Member
Joined: January 21, 2013 Posts: 369 Location: Cape Cod
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Posted: Thu Sep 07, 2017 5:26 pm Post subject: Re: 78' 2.0L EFI starter not operating |
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I ended up taking the solenoid off of the starter, in hopes that it was the issue; but it works just fine. I take it that plunger pulls in and the starter shoots out to the flywheel. Just as Tcash and Wildthings mentioned.
Seems that the problem is indeed coming from under the dash, in the maze of wires. Seems to be 3 generations of novice electricians at work under there:
I starter by cutting all the zip ties, and freeing up the wires. I weeded out all the non-sense, the random wires hooked to nothing; then shortened up all the long wires. Also cleaned up that big T connector, and made sure it was nice and snug. Even with all the tidying up, it still looks like a mess under there, ha. But a little better:
The stater works like a charm now So fingers crossed that I'll be able to drive it this weekend. Then I can move on to the 20 other problems that need addressing |
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