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ldsvwguy Samba Member
Joined: September 16, 2003 Posts: 1020 Location: Saratoga Springs, UT
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:47 am Post subject: Thermostat and Flaps |
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So I should be wrapping up the engine build today, a 1904. I have a smooth thing fanshroud on it and was thinking about the fact that it doesn't have a thermostat or flaps. I don't think any dual port engine i have ever owned had them. I'm pretty sure my old SP did before it was hammered by an escalade.
Now I know this is a heated discussion from what other posts I read about this, please be nice.
How many of you run flaps in your bus? Is this something I really should consider right now? How will they work with the 1904? I do plan on driving my dc as much as possible (just not in snow), but my commute is 7 miles each way. _________________ "When I die, I want to die like my grandfather who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car." |
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jeremy57ride Samba Member
Joined: May 23, 2005 Posts: 1318
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:34 am Post subject: |
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I run flaps and I'm of the opinion the they direct the air a bit better over the cooling fins. HOWEVER if you do not set up a thermostat, be sure to wire the flaps open pemanently. This is probably why most take them out.
Also, I'm not sure why displacement would make a bit of difference. _________________ "If you don't do it this year, you'll be one year older when you do." -Warren Miller |
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Dontburnit Samba Member
Joined: May 13, 2011 Posts: 264 Location: Manitoba
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:35 am Post subject: flaps and stat |
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I've had motors with, and without them.
Currently running 1641 67 T2 without them. PO rebuilt the motor and did not install them. Seems ok. I am a fair weather driver, 20 miles to town, all high speed travel. Bus only sees snow thru the garage window. I've put about 2000 miles on my bus in two seasons. Seems ok.
Had a stat and flaps in a stock T3 notchback years ago, stat failed and cooked the motor on a highway trip. That notch was driven year round, however.
Rebuilt a 1700 in my T4, installed the flaps and stat. System worked well, also was driven year round.
Rebuilt 1641 in my 75 bug, did not reinstall the flaps and stat. This T1 was also a fair weather seasonal driver until the "incident".... _________________ What can we build for you?
Contact Kevin today. 205 750 2705 |
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crofty Judas of the North
Joined: August 09, 2000 Posts: 19670 Location: Land of Whine and Phonies
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:52 am Post subject: |
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Just to be clear, when a Thermostat fails on a bus or T1 it fails in the open position so the flaps are open not closed.
If you have the linkage and the flaps on the fanshroud (including the all important spring from shroud to linkage arm) the flaps "default" to the open position. SO if you have all of that and not the thermostat itself they will be open anyway.
VW spent millions in research on the fan and cooling tin to make the best set-up they could why not use it. I run them on all of my motors, it's cheap insurance. _________________ Your Vanagon sucks, Stop waving at me.
HamburgerBrad wrote: |
I slept on crofty's tent once. I passed out drunk from two bottles of Everett's brother's wine. |
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Culito 11010101
Joined: December 07, 2006 Posts: 5863 Location: Columbia Missourah
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:47 pm Post subject: |
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I always run a thermostat and flaps. Aside from directing the air properly when open, the action of the thermostat helps get the engine up to operating temperature faster. _________________ Copyright CJ Industries, Inc.
'64 standard w/2.0L type 4
'62 bug
johnnypan wrote: |
...dont pay no attention to Culito,he's a cornhole.. |
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Clara Samba Member
Joined: June 14, 2003 Posts: 12382
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Posted: Tue Jul 17, 2012 7:31 pm Post subject: |
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The idea is you want to get the engine up to operating temp quickly, as cold oil does not lubricate well. 80F oil is cold for the motor. 100F oil is cold too. The flaps open at ~65 C, which is ~150 F.
If it is 150 F out, you are going to hide in an air conditioned building rather than drive your ACVW.
According to Gene Berg, most of the wear happens when the motor is cold.
I have also heard that the flaps direct the air for best cooling once open.
best to put them in whether you live where it is cold or hot.
I have been installing them, and any other missing bits, in every motor I've had... for years. For some reason, I don't have oil temps of 250, even when my bus is fully laden cruising the hwy and it is 100F out.
I think most people leave them out because they are lazy. First time I changed a muffler I was replacing those little pieces that cover the heat risers. A friend said " You know, you can just leave those off." I said that I figured VW knew more than me and put them there for a reason, and it isn't that big a deal to install it. I put them on in spite of the peer pressure. |
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JohnnyRingo Samba Member
Joined: October 22, 2011 Posts: 414 Location: United States
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 1:16 pm Post subject: |
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Clara wrote: |
The idea is you want to get the engine up to operating temp quickly, as cold oil does not lubricate well. 80F oil is cold for the motor. 100F oil is cold too. The flaps open at ~65 C, which is ~150 F.
If it is 150 F out, you are going to hide in an air conditioned building rather than drive your ACVW.
According to Gene Berg, most of the wear happens when the motor is cold.
I have also heard that the flaps direct the air for best cooling once open.
best to put them in whether you live where it is cold or hot.
I have been installing them, and any other missing bits, in every motor I've had... for years. For some reason, I don't have oil temps of 250, even when my bus is fully laden cruising the hwy and it is 100F out.
I think most people leave them out because they are lazy. First time I changed a muffler I was replacing those little pieces that cover the heat risers. A friend said " You know, you can just leave those off." I said that I figured VW knew more than me and put them there for a reason, and it isn't that big a deal to install it. I put them on in spite of the peer pressure. |
My kind of lady..........OEM.I just built a 1915cc....I have 71 mexico factory tins,they fit like a glove. I also installed thermostat w/flaps and correct springs...She purrs like a kitten,and I have peace of mind that when the motor starts the heads are heating up proper just like VW intended...according to Gene Berg......glad we got something in common Clara.. |
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Erik G Samba Member
Joined: October 16, 2002 Posts: 13247 Location: Tejas!
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derv Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2005 Posts: 2600 Location: Oak Park (Chicago), IL
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:14 pm Post subject: |
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Install them. _________________ Jack
Quote: |
Mr. Hido: To post your bare ass to virtually all hardened bus enthusiasts casts thick, a slag not easily ground smooth. |
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crofty Judas of the North
Joined: August 09, 2000 Posts: 19670 Location: Land of Whine and Phonies
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Posted: Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:40 pm Post subject: |
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derv wrote: |
Install them. |
Wow, Jack is still around?!! Nice! _________________ Your Vanagon sucks, Stop waving at me.
HamburgerBrad wrote: |
I slept on crofty's tent once. I passed out drunk from two bottles of Everett's brother's wine. |
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DJ Pierre Samba Member
Joined: November 09, 2008 Posts: 349 Location: Netherlands
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:34 am Post subject: |
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Use them for shure but try to find the original version and not the "new"version. The newer style wil close the flaps when they fail!
Original style:
New style:
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KTPhil Samba Member
Joined: April 06, 2006 Posts: 33875 Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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Posted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:39 pm Post subject: |
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I love the Muir book, and credit him with my inspiration to start working on VWs, but his advice on thermostats is, well, just wrong. On the one hand, he had problems with plugged heat risers (blew an engine, he says), and yet the lack of thermostat and flaps probably contributed greatly to the problem. Cold engine means unburned gas, sooty exhaust, and plugged heat riser. Sure, it runs fine for a while, and degrades so slowly you don't attribute it to the lack of proper warmup. Then many miles down the road, when you do major engine work, you replace or struggle to unplug the riser, and forget the connection to the thermostat removal.
My trusted German (factory trainers, no less) mechanics in the '70s even used to take them off. Maybe because they need periodic lubrication, cleaning, and therefore could cause a customer to come back. Or maybe they loved the warm SoCal weather so much as compared to their native Germany that they didn't think it would be a problem. But they, too, were not correct (Sorry, Hans and Gerhardt!).
But they removed it on my dad's (now my) T3. I replaced the system when I cleaned up the motor and got the car back on the road. Wow, what a difference in warmup time! And how smoothly it drove from a cold start in the mornings! I can tell you I could easily FEEL the difference in how it warmed up. I even had to adjust the FI idle bypass because it idled too fast after a minute.
I'd put them back on next opportunity, and know your engine will last longer. Oh, and on a T1 engine, those flaps direct air better and the cooling balance is better. |
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KevinAlbrecht Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Ocean City > Boca > Pompano > Kirkland > Eugene
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 7:22 pm Post subject: |
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I am putting together a new engine, and I am at the point where I want to install the thermostat. I have never run them before, so I am following along with guides. Interestingly enough, the '63 Bently doesn't cover it.
My soon to be complete engine doesn't have a thermo bracket bolt/hole? I am not sure what this means. Does it infer an earlier case? I haven't gotten a difinitive answer in my research, only a comment hinting to such.
So what are my options? _________________ Kevin Albrecht
Wait, what...?
WideFive wrote: |
Single carbs are for lawn mowers! |
Don't forget those seat-belts!
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flemcadiddlehopper Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011 Posts: 2332 Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 8:07 pm Post subject: |
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Not only are the flaps important, but all the little bits that go along with the thermostat are important too. Like the little tin bit that the t-stat rod goes thru in the head, the hoover bit, the spring, the sleds and (if using them too) the type 3 super cool tin or stock deflectors. They are all there to help the engine maintain the proper operating temperature. So unless you live in sunny California where it is 72 degrees all year long, run it all.
Gordo. _________________ Everybody Dies....Some Never Live.
Retrograde Garage. Vintage Aircooled, and others. |
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wcfvw69 Samba Purist
Joined: June 10, 2004 Posts: 13382 Location: Arizona
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Posted: Wed May 14, 2014 9:19 pm Post subject: |
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I also run thermostats and ALL the associated tin that came originally with both my stock bugs. I noticed a difference when installing them. The engine warmed up nicely and is smooth and responsive vs. being "cold" for a while w/out the thermostat. _________________ Contact me at [email protected]
Follow me on instagram @sparxwerksllc
Decades of VW and VW parts restoration experience.
The Samba member since 2004.
**Now rebuilding throttle bodies for VW's and Porsche's**
**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche fuel pumps or I can restore yours**
**Restored Porsche distributors or I can restore yours** |
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KevinAlbrecht Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Ocean City > Boca > Pompano > Kirkland > Eugene
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 4:52 am Post subject: |
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flemcadiddlehopper wrote: |
Not only are the flaps important, but all the little bits that go along with the thermostat are important too. Like the little tin bit that the t-stat rod goes thru in the head, the hoover bit, the spring, the sleds and (if using them too) the type 3 super cool tin or stock deflectors. They are all there to help the engine maintain the proper operating temperature. So unless you live in sunny California where it is 72 degrees all year long, run it all.
Gordo. |
Yes, I know. Now back to my question. _________________ Kevin Albrecht
Wait, what...?
WideFive wrote: |
Single carbs are for lawn mowers! |
Don't forget those seat-belts!
Click to view image |
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flemcadiddlehopper Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011 Posts: 2332 Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:17 am Post subject: |
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KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
flemcadiddlehopper wrote: |
Not only are the flaps important, but all the little bits that go along with the thermostat are important too. Like the little tin bit that the t-stat rod goes thru in the head, the hoover bit, the spring, the sleds and (if using them too) the type 3 super cool tin or stock deflectors. They are all there to help the engine maintain the proper operating temperature. So unless you live in sunny California where it is 72 degrees all year long, run it all.
Gordo. |
Yes, I know. Now back to my question. |
Sorry, I didn't notice this was a dredged up thread.
Is the place on the block where the bracket should be a flat spot and it is just not tapped yet, or is it voided completely at the casting stage?
I would think that there is enough material in the correct spot to put your own hole there...just don't drill all the way through.
Gordo. _________________ Everybody Dies....Some Never Live.
Retrograde Garage. Vintage Aircooled, and others. |
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Stocknazi Samba Member
Joined: June 18, 2004 Posts: 5146
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:21 am Post subject: |
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KevinAlbrecht wrote: |
I am putting together a new engine, and I am at the point where I want to install the thermostat. I have never run them before, so I am following along with guides. Interestingly enough, the '63 Bently doesn't cover it.
My soon to be complete engine doesn't have a thermo bracket bolt/hole? I am not sure what this means. Does it infer an earlier case? I haven't gotten a difinitive answer in my research, only a comment hinting to such.
So what are my options? |
What everyone else said ^^^^
The thermostat and associated tin are very important to have on your motor; Please use them.
If you have flaps check out how quickly they close after diving, even in the summer; In the winter, they may never fully open.
Reguarding the spring breaking, check to make sure the spring you are using is not worn down thin where it hooks to the loop on the backside of the fanshroud. I have seen several that are worn thin there, and could
break letting your flaps close.
I don't recall ever seeing a case w/o a stud fot the thermo bracket; I do usually see a rusty stud b/c the bracket has been missing forever.
take a pic of the area on the case. I believe there is a casting bump where the stud should be. Replacment case possibly? _________________ WANTED:
58 Westfalia cabinet knobs (3 needed), roof rack, and (7) privy tent poles (silver painted).
"When the people are afraid of the government, that's tyranny. But when the government is afraid of the people, that's liberty."
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God."
Thomas Jefferson |
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KevinAlbrecht Samba Member
Joined: March 07, 2002 Posts: 970 Location: Ocean City > Boca > Pompano > Kirkland > Eugene
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 6:24 am Post subject: |
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flemcadiddlehopper wrote: |
Sorry, I didn't notice this was a dredged up thread.
Is the place on the block where the bracket should be a flat spot and it is just not tapped yet, or is it voided completely at the casting stage?
I would think that there is enough material in the correct spot to put your own hole there...just don't drill all the way through.
Gordo. |
Hey thank you & sorry for the terse response. Much better now that I have had some coffee. The center of the case side is flat, but it doesn't look like there is "supposed" to be a stud there. I snap a pic tonight.
I cringe at the through of drilling there. How thick is the case at that point? I can only imagine drilling into the oil galley. _________________ Kevin Albrecht
Wait, what...?
WideFive wrote: |
Single carbs are for lawn mowers! |
Don't forget those seat-belts!
Click to view image |
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flemcadiddlehopper Samba Member
Joined: December 05, 2011 Posts: 2332 Location: Kelowna, BC. Canada.
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Posted: Thu May 15, 2014 7:02 am Post subject: |
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think I have a case laying around that I can check how deep the hole is.
Gordo. _________________ Everybody Dies....Some Never Live.
Retrograde Garage. Vintage Aircooled, and others. |
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