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euni(e
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2021
Posts: 24
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 Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 12:37 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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Andrew once posted:
Stupid question: is the following a “stock diesel Vanagon alternator” (Valeo 70A)… Meaning I cannot install a freewheel pulley on it?
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2329
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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Post a pic of the end of the shaft on your Alternator. How the pulley is mounted (screwed on) is the tell tale to be looking for.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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euni(e
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2021
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
| Post a pic of the end of the shaft on your Alternator. How the pulley is mounted (screwed on) is the tell tale to be looking for. |
Like these?
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2329
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Tue Feb 28, 2023 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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I went out to the garage and removed the pulley off an '87 VW Quantum 90 amp Bosch ALT. The center of the shaft has an Allen cut. Anyway, the INA over-ride pulley screwed down on it perfectly.
And, I've used the 90 amp gasser ALTs for the MK4 Jettas (my 2000 TDI) and the over-ride pulley worked perfectly. (The 90 amp has been on it at least 10 years with no issues.)
So, yes, I feel quite certain that an INA over-ride/clutch pulley will screw onto that shaft. Of course, you'll need the proper tools. The over-ride pulley has inside splines to hold it with a special tool while tighten (or visa versa). The tool set can be purchased on eBay... three piece I believe.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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euni(e
Samba Member
Joined: December 21, 2021
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| AndyBees wrote: |
I went out to the garage and removed the pulley off an '87 VW Quantum 90 amp Bosch ALT. The center of the shaft has an Allen cut. Anyway, the INA over-ride pulley screwed down on it perfectly.
And, I've used the 90 amp gasser ALTs for the MK4 Jettas (my 2000 TDI) and the over-ride pulley worked perfectly. (The 90 amp has been on it at least 10 years with no issues.)
So, yes, I feel quite certain that an INA over-ride/clutch pulley will screw onto that shaft. Of course, you'll need the proper tools. The over-ride pulley has inside splines to hold it with a special tool while tighten (or visa versa). The tool set can be purchased on eBay... three piece I believe. |
Thanks, AndyBees. I do have an INA override pulley, but I think I just have the wrong one, because when I install it, the whole pulley makes contact with the alternator (not just the center) so it can’t turn as it should… I believe that in the correct pulley for my Valeo 70A alternator, the pulley center should protrude, but I’m just having a hard time finding the correct part… or it doesn’t even exist, if my alternator is one of the stock ones Andrew mentioned in his old post above. I don’t think it is stock tho, as I can only see Bosch alternators mentioned in the Bentley manual, not Valeo.
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
Posts: 2329
Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 4:22 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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This is the part number for the INA over-ride pulley I have 022903119C.
It will fit any Bosch ALT on 1999 thru 2006 VW MK4 or 5, both gasser and TDI. It may fit others. Cross referencing would provide that info.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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Location: Reading Pennsylvania
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do.dah
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Joined: August 27, 2015
Posts: 444
Location: Washington
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| That, or, take it to a machine shop and either have them "part off" or turn down the offending part of the pulley,,, depending on how the belt lines up. |
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AndyBees
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Joined: January 31, 2008
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Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Wed Mar 01, 2023 7:12 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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I don't think there's ample space for a washer. But, maybe a customized washer might work.
I'd go with the option of removing some material off the side of the pulley on a lathe.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003.
Last edited by AndyBees on Sun Mar 05, 2023 7:56 am; edited 2 times in total |
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DuncanS
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Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2023 6:42 am Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| do.dah wrote: |
| That, or, take it to a machine shop and either have them "part off" or turn down the offending part of the pulley,,, depending on how the belt lines up. |
Do.dah has it right. If you look at the distance from the belt lip to the end of the pulley, his looks about the same as the drawing. I'm a nut job and therefore would bolt it up in the drill press and take my angle grinder and remove the offending material. Might be a tad out of balance, but with the belt pulling on one side all the time, would it even know the difference?
Duncan |
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euni(e
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Joined: December 21, 2021
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:07 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| djkeev wrote: |
| Just make a spacer to hold your pulley off the alternator body. |
This seems to be exactly what I need to do to maintain the belt alignment. But what would be the safest way to add these ~3mm I’m missing right where I believe the pulley should be stronger? I originally wanted to change the solid pulley just to prevent the famous AAZ crankshaft failure, but now that I can’t find the right part I’m thinking it’s probably safer to just reinstall my (now a little damaged after inexpert removal) solid pulley to avoid a potential alternator+water pump+engine failure if the hacked freewheel pulley fails?
Thoughts? Am I just overthinking this all and shouldn’t be worried to just install a little anything between the freewheel pulley and the alternator?
Thanks, everyone. I appreciate y’all’s suggestions.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:17 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| You certainly need to take a file or a stone to those burrs or you will eat the belt in short order. |
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euni(e
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Joined: December 21, 2021
Posts: 24
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| You certainly need to take a file or a stone to those burrs or you will eat the belt in short order. |
That’s for sure. Thanks, Wildthings. |
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DuncanS
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Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 3:18 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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The problem I see here is the distance from the first belt land to the end of its shaft mount is longer on your old one on the left. So even it you do machine it down, you will need a short bushing to hold it away from the alternator the correct amount. And what does that do the the forces? You say the AAZ is prone to shaft failures and if so, this doesn't seem like a great idea.
I've never heard of an override pulley for an alternator. If it is pushing out too much juice for a battery, can't the situation be handled electronically instead of mechanically? How does the clutch know when to release? Can't this same situation be used to decouple the alternator electrically? A mechanical system seems like an anachronism in this day and age of electronic BMSes.
Duncan |
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AndyBees
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Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sat Mar 04, 2023 7:35 pm Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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| DuncanS wrote: |
I've never heard of an override pulley for an alternator. If it is pushing out too much juice for a battery, can't the situation be handled electronically instead of mechanically? How does the clutch know when to release? Can't this same situation be used to decouple the alternator electrically? A mechanical system seems like an anachronism in this day and age of electronic BMSes.
Duncan |
The over-ride has nothing to do with charging. The over-ride only takes place when the engine is shut-down. The Diesel Engine comes to a sudden stop when the fuel is cut-off. So, the Over-ride/Clutched pulley is used to accommodate the inertia of the spinning Rotor, especially the 120 amp units with the heavier rotor. Thus, less stress on the Sepentine Belt.
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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DuncanS
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Location: New Hampshire
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 5:38 am Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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OK--Sorry about being such a dunce. Don't know about diesels. Refused to have one in my boat. Noisy, vibration, smelly fuel and exhaust creating queasiness. How much wear does this create on the belt? Do you get 50k miles instead of 125? Sounds like maybe a red herring?
On the mechanic's scale of 0-10, I'm a minus 3 about tons of car and engine stuff.
Duncan |
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AndyBees
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Location: Southeast Kentucky
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:11 am Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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The OP is trying to reduce stress on the Harmon Balancer on the end of the Crankshaft which is prone to "wallering" for the lack of the appropriate term. The issue only involves those early model TDI engines.
Apparently the VW engineers determined that an over-ride clutch would be necessary it reduce stress on the Serp Belt. The Serp Belt will go over 100k miles with the use of an over-ride pulley. I have no clue how long one would last using a non-over-ride pulley. If I am not mistaken, an over-ride pulley is used on all European vehicles with a 120 amp Alt or larger.
I installed a 2002 ALH TDI engine in my 84 Tin-top .. smells about like any other well maintained VW Diesel. I also included the CAT. So, it will meet emission standards for that era of TDI engine . Proper motor mounts virtually eliminate vibes. The fuel economy is awesome (32 to 36 MPGs).
My engine before installation (about 2010).
My build Thread can be seen in this link https://forums.tdiclub.com/index.php?threads/alh-tdi-engine-transplant-into-84-vanagon.276798/
_________________
'84 Vanagon Tin-top, ALH TDI. 1989 Tin-top
1983 Air-cool, 225k miles, 180k miles mine. Seven trips to Alaska from 1986 thru 2003. |
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djkeev
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Joined: September 30, 2007
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:17 am Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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I'm with you Duncan, I figured it was some sort of freewheeling clutch like an A/C compressor but didn't know why you would want one on an alternator.
Like you, I've no affection for the Diesel engine.
Noisy, smelly, fuel stinks and when they stop running...... it is usually expensive to fix.
I learned to dislike Diesel during my Mercedes Benz days of the 190D, 200D, 220D & 300D days.
Maybe I only saw a concentration of the broken ones?
You touch a drop of Diesel and you wear that perfume for days afterwards.
Get it on your clothes? The Wife is cussing you out for ruining her washing machine with that horrible odor.
I've owned 2 diesels, an old AllisChambers back hie and a newer JCB hoe. Hated when I had to service them!
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473
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http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537
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DuncanS
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| Posted: Sun Mar 05, 2023 6:23 am Post subject: Re: Official lazy person's stupid question thread |
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Andy--Sorry, but I'm not ever going to be a diesel guy. I know there are plenty of arguments for diesel, but none of the negatives work for me. Had a buddy with a wagon with one of the naughty VW engines and he loved it...............until he stepped is some of the spilled fuel and transferred it to the floor mat where he was never able to get rid of the smell. Any small diesel spill in the bilge of a boat makes it unlivable. Cars don't have that problem. Yes, they get great mileage, but cost per mile with diesel prices?
Duncan |
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djkeev
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