not exactly another seam rust thread: what to do with the hole?

[macjack]

So after temporarily rust converting my seams last year, I am in there now, dental pick, dremel wheel, sandblast. You name it, I am going after it. These are the seams behind both front doors.

From the outside, they aren't as bad as they could be, save for the quarter sized hole (okay, maybe two quarters) at the bottom of the driver's seam. I had arrested that last year, so it is not progressing.

I am delighted to find that inside the wheel wells is a thick coating that must have been applied at the factory, as this was originally a Colorado van. It is still mostly flexible, but, as you would guess, it split in a few places, and those are exactly where the seam rust came through on the outside.
I have picked and scraped and poked and, oh boy, suddenly, the rusty metal gives way to a hole (~3 inches long) in the wheel well.

This is the other side of the drivers side hole.

There are a few cracks on the upper side of each wheel well, along some seam, and I have scraped the undercoating off and exposed the beginnings of some rust.

So I have degreased and acetoned all this stuff. I'll probably treat the rust with a neutralizer, then prime and undercoat the inside of the wheel wells. I have some 3m 8310, and an applicator ($$$$gulp)$$). I plan to take care of the seams, then prime and paint the outside. I know this is all the source of a few differing opinions, according to the pages of Samba threads I have read, but I feel okay about how I will treat the seams.

My question: what to do with the holes behind the driver wheel inside the fender? That gets so much spray from the road, and this is a working battlewagon, driving in all conditions, expecially winter. I cringe thinking of mag chloride slush getting inside that hole and just sitting there. It is quite the cavity back there!
I have used bondo and fiberglass fabric and epoxy before, but am unprepared to weld (no skills or equipment). What might I do? Ghetto would be stuff some steel wool in there before the rubberized undercoating, and try to build up a surface. sheesh.
anybody successfully tackled this without cutting out body panels and welding? I have a replacement panel, but am saving that for when I do a full repaint (and learn to weld).
ideas needed.
Thanks in advance!
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[BavarianWrench]

It would be interesting to treat it and use some of that two part body panel glue and fill it. Gluing in some tin? If you're not equipped to weld in some new tin, that would be better then leaving it exposed. get a hold of NewFisher. He is knowledgeable when it comes to modern body work. I have a mig in Denver if you want to give it a go. Hit me up on a PM.

[vwjetboat]

I would clean the inside area of where that is that held the water.. make sure it can drain.. treat it so it stops rust on the inside you can not get to that has not made to outside.. then grind the outside down and use tigerhair not bondo.. sand it.. get some paint mixed to match or if they sell some all ready maybe and spray it.. that is .. very little rust..

[macjack]

Bavarian, gluing in a pice is an interesting idea. Tin is material of choice? Not stainless flashing? I don't have the panel glue, but could get the stuff, since I now have that fancy applicator. If I get a little time, I might pm you for some mig time in Denver. . .
And Jetboat, I might just send a bunch of something into that cavity while it is open. Good idea. Maybe some of the rust converter? One of the drain plugs is gone for that spot, so it is open to the ground, which might help a little as far as draining, but probably would be good to get another little plug in there, given the high spray zone that it is in.

I was wondering about another ghetto approach, the expandable spray insulation stuff. . .I imagine that it might hold moisture though, even if I can get a good rubberized coating of undercoating on it and sealed up. not as good as gluing a panel, for sure, so a moot point. plus that stuff is expensive, as much as the 8115 glue.

As far as the seams go, I will ask for a little feedback here. . .
The 8310 spec sheet says:
3M Bare Metal Seam Sealer 08310 is designed for application over bare
steel, galvanized steel, & aluminum, or to surfaces primed with a 2K urethane, 2K epoxy primer, or clean, sanded paint. Acid etch primers should never be in direct contact with seam sealer.

So no acid etch primer. I am thinking that using this product, I can use a primer like Rust Bullet, even though it is not a 2k product. Is this wrong? I am planning to use a rust converter, then rust bullet, then seam seal, then primer and paint. But I won't really be able to sand whatever I put in the seam before the seam sealer, unless I sandblast it a little to rough it up. But a bunch of that stuff in there is not coming out. I has already put some rust converter in, and it is really hard. The Dremel wheel felt like I was cutting through welds, but it wasn't very deep so I doubt that I was hitting welds. I used the TK method of handheld spot sandblaster with convex tip, and shot it quite a bit after the Dremel wheel and dental pick. Should the seam look really open?

OK, I guess this is turning out to be another seam rust thread. . .
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[zuhandenheit]

I was going to suggest 3M panel bond (8115). Given that it's temporary, I don't think it matters too much what you use. But stainless flashing would save you the trouble of topcoating it!

Obviously you should clean it up as much as possible and make sure that any bare metal is coated with something, leaving space for the adhesive, which should be applied to bare metal.

A great thing about 8115 is that when the time comes to replace the panel, you can just hit the glued panel with a propane torch and the glue will release very cleanly.

[zuhandenheit]

You should get some other opinions, but I wouldn't use rust bullet in the seams. I wouldn't trust products like that for something serious like this. They don't always adhere well to clean metal and other products don't always adhere well to them.

You can get real two-part epoxy in a spray can (it has two bladders that you mix with a plunger on the bottom). Or, hell, you could apply epoxy by hand with a foam brush.

IME, epoxy adheres FAR better than POR15. And products like that or rust bullet are not magic . . . bullets - they work just be sealing the metal. POR 15 sticks extremely well to rusty metal. Rust bullet is probably similar. But I don't trust them at all on clean metal, and I really wouldn't trust them on something like this!

Other option: Get the 8115 glue for the holes and fill your seams with it too. You wouldn't need to prime them first and it is extremely easy to work with. Terry Key recommended this and I tried it with good results. A number of others have too.

[atomatom]

i used body seam sealer (not the oft talked about and expensive 8115 - just a $20 tube of something from the FLAPS) on my kitchen rocker panel to cover holes that were bigger than that. it has held up well. however, i did have access to completely remove all rust from both sides of the hole, which you may not with some seams. if you do not remove all the rust, you can end up with the hidden rot that curses many bondo repairs. however, most seam sealer is flexible so won't rattle loose like bondo.
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84 Vanagon Westy, 1.9L, California raised but defected to Canada.

[djkeev]

For a short term repair, you need to STOP water infiltration into those holes.

Of course the proper repair is to cut and weld in new metal, but for now sand/grind away the paint to clean bare metal, get a tube of body panel adhesive, get some sheet metal and snips.
Cut and form the metal to cover the holes tightly.
Smear on the panel adhesive and press the panel into place. You will need to create a holding jig using whatever you have to hold the new panel tightly until the adhesive cures.
Skim over some bondo, sand and paint.

This is short term only for the base cancer is still in there, however this will greatly slow down the rust and stop the mice from getting in!

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert

[UngaWunga]

[macjack]

Thanks for all the suggestions.
I do need to learn to weld one of these days, and get the equipment. But I have only a driveway, no garage, and some sort of psychological block about jumping in to that world. Fortunately, here in Colorado, the rust issue is much less than other parts of the country, but it exists.
Yes, unga, I was merely typing a random thought that occurred to me while looking at the products in my local FLAPS, which I had already determined to be "the opposite" of what I wanted. Maybe I should not even type such thoughts. My family wishes I wouldn't say many of my jokes out loud as well. . .
Sealing the holes to prevent moisture intrusion is the main concern with this thread. The glue method will at least accomplish that. And given where it is, I am not worried about the aesthetics of it. You can't see it unless you take the wheel off and stick your head in the wheel well.
As far as Rust Bullett, I am still stuck a little on the question of what to put on the metal of the seams. 8115, according to the TK method, goes on the bare metal, and displaces moisture and has its own rust inhibiting properties plus seals from the elements. Good to know about the torch-release method for whatever future needs. The opened seams from the backside could use a rust treatment, but a converter seems like it could provide a challenging surface for adhesions inside a seam, if you can't sand it? I wonder if you could chemically bond to it before it fully cures?
I have used the two part spray cans before. Certainly willing to go that route. I do have 2k urethane primer and an HVLP gun and compressor. It is mostly the rust treatment issue that is a question.
I think I will get the 8115 for at least another option in there. It is clear that anything that was sealed inside the wheel well remained rust free. Anything that had the crack in the undercoating (after 30 years), started to have problems. So sealing from all sides good and tight is an important part of the equation.
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[macjack]

ok. So getting more aggressive with the rust in there. Of course the 3 inch hole will now really be a 8 inch hole, once I get rid of the bad metal.

I am getting more out of the seam too, with the dremel wheel.

I am unsure where the welds are that I don't want to cut, though. There's less and less to hold on to in the back, there.
somehow the sandblast method didn't get as much, I'm thinking that my first foray into sandblast is a learning process. I chose plastic pellets, but I don't think that they are very agressive. I think I need another media? Any suggestions?

Also, what is the best way to cut out the rusted crap? It is tight in there, and I don't want to mess up things that I don't mean to. I have a cutoff wheel on a handheld dewalt. Not sure the diameter, but it needs to be pretty big to clear the body of the tool past the seam there. I had trouble with a 4 inch wire wheel with that tool in that space. I could get a bigger wheel? The long vertical cuts are doable, but the horizontal cuts at the top and bottom are another story. Without a welding setup, any other suggestions? I might be calling upon BavarianWrench before too long. . .
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[newfisher]

All good temporary suggestions. Having said you have the patch panels to repair it correctly you know what the best answer is. Anything else will last a few years or more and just need dug out when you are ready. Documenting this repair for others should include " temporary" and will be usefull for those managing a short term solution until they can learn the skills to replace the panels or fund it by a professional.

[macjack]

I am backing into this reality, the eventual panel replacement. I hear you.

The panel I have is the fender.

While I'd like to replace that fender, I can deal with that little hole at the bottom, so long as the seam doesn't continue to rot everything around it.
The hole I am mostly interested in addressing is on the back wall of the drivers front wheel well. I don't have a ready made piece for that, but would like to cut out the crap and weld in a new piece, but it doesn't seem as simple as a body panel. for a pro, I bet it is quite doable.
How do I find someone who could do this fo realz, newfisher?
In the short term, I need to cut it, cover it, and get back to using the van rather than having it sit in the driveway as a project. The van is always a little bit of a project, but tilted toward an imperfect, driven machine.

When I am under the van, I do see little surface rust on some parts developing, and the line of where to stop gets fuzzy pretty quick, but my wallet (or wife) will tell me when I hit that line, I'm sure.
_________________
87 TDI Syncro Westy
81 Westy (sold)
80 Rabbit Wolfsburg (rolled)
Bike as primary transportation

[BavarianWrench]

Mac I used tin, what I meant was actual sheet metal. Probably metal from a donor van.