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Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing
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surfbus23
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 9:27 pm    Post subject: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Now that I'm not freaked out so much over my broken bolt, there was another much more minor problem that I was having trouble figuring out. I can't seem to keep the motor mounts straight while I torque them down. They keep getting out of alignment and my feeling is that I'll get maximum dampening with maximum contact which will happen in nice parallel alignment. Any technique suggestions?

Thanks!

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Busstom
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 10:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Slide the rear support bar onto the motor mount studs and snug the nuts onto the bottoms first. Whatever torque you apply to the top ones causes twist, counter it by torquing the bottom ones. DISCLAIMER: I have never done this step yet...I've still not reinstalled my engine in my late Westy...however, it just seems like the logical solution. Additionally, when the mounts rotate while torquing, it seems like the lower studs would swing out at an odd angle (from vertical) when the mounts twist, so if you install the support bar, the studs would probably bind in the bar, thereby preventing unwanted rotation of the mount while torquing from above.
EDIT: I just went to the garage and confirmed a couple of things with my own parts: 1) my motor mounts have square shanks on the upper studs...this makes them lock into the square holes on the mount brackets, preventing unwanted rotation. And 2) you definitely don't want them skewed, or you'll play hell getting your rear support bar/hanger on, because as they rotate, the studs go out of plane from the mounting bosses on the hanger bar, and you'll never get them in correctly...not without bending the heck out of your mounts to force them.

On another topic, it would appear that you could use slightly longer oil pump studs, if in fact you want the "nylocs" to function as designed. After all, that's why you put them on, right? I'm pretty sure somebody will chime in here soon, saying that "those nuts won't work on a hot engine!" or something to that effect. But I'm pretty certain that they'll work just as designed, provided there's enough stud length protruding beyond the nuts to allow the nylon inserts to grab some thread.
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Put a rag around the mount and hold it with some slip joint pliers, get as close as you can to the nut you are tightening and start with the mount slightly turned against its rotation. So that when it has been torqued enough to stop rotating. It will be in the installed position.

The oil pump studs you have could be 27 or 32 mm long if they are type 4.
These studs are 45 mm long.
https://www.wolfgangint.com/store/product/studs-n143953/
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Wildthings
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 2:58 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Grab the upper metal end with a pair of Channelocks. You could also force a screwdriver between the metal end and the block and use it as a wedge against the metal.
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sodbuster
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:49 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Myself I would add a split ring lock washer between the flat washer and the nut and try it again. it looks like there is enough thead to do so. As added support I would also hold the "top bracket" portion of the mount with some slip joint pliers while tightening it also. But that's me. Wink

Oops Wildthings beat me to that second part. Laughing
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:02 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
Grab the upper metal end with a pair of Channelocks. You could also force a screwdriver between the metal end and the block and use it as a wedge against the metal.


THIS

I attach them to the mustache bar first before installing the bar. Yeah....you have to flex things a little to get the upper studs in the holes.....but then as Wildthings noted.....use channel locks or a big,wrench to hold the upper plate when you tighten the nut.

Also as Busstom noted.....there "should" be square anti-rotation thanks on the upper studs.

However....and its been a while.....I found years ago a set of "aftermarket" parts from Mid-America motorworks.....that had no square anti rotation shanks on them.

No telling what the range of variation is now. Ray
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Tcash
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

You could install roll pins.
Drill a hole of the appropriate size to retain the roll pin through the mount and the metal plate on the rubber mount. Then drill a slightly larger hole in the mount so the roll pin is free. Press the roll pin into the rubber mount top plate.
Then when you install the rubber mount the roll pin will prevent it from turning.
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Busstom
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:12 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Tcash wrote:
You could install roll pins.
Drill a hole of the appropriate size to retain the roll pin through the mount and the metal plate on the rubber mount. Then drill a slightly larger hole in the mount so the roll pin is free. Press the roll pin into the rubber mount top plate.
Then when you install the rubber mount the roll pin will prevent it from turning.

This was rolling through my head too. Although I was thinking something more like 1/4-28's nubbed through the tops of the brackets into the top plates.
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hazetguy
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:13 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Quote:
my motor mounts have square shanks on the upper studs...this makes them lock into the square holes on the mount brackets, preventing unwanted rotation.


for reference: (my) pic of NOS VW mounts, showing the square shanks:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


i've held them with channellocks, or wait until the weight of the engine is on the mounts (engine installed) before tightening them.

perhaps you could remove the brackets from the case and hold them in a bench vise to tighten everything, then bolt the brackets back on the case.
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:36 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Busstom wrote:
Tcash wrote:
You could install roll pins.
Drill a hole of the appropriate size to retain the roll pin through the mount and the metal plate on the rubber mount. Then drill a slightly larger hole in the mount so the roll pin is free. Press the roll pin into the rubber mount top plate.
Then when you install the rubber mount the roll pin will prevent it from turning.

This was rolling through my head too. Although I was thinking something more like 1/4-28's nubbed through the tops of the brackets into the top plates.


Laughing ...i was thinking that same thing as well!
Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:40 am    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

hazetguy wrote:
Quote:
my motor mounts have square shanks on the upper studs...this makes them lock into the square holes on the mount brackets, preventing unwanted rotation.


for reference: (my) pic of NOS VW mounts, showing the square shanks:
Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


i've held them with channellocks, or wait until the weight of the engine is on the mounts (engine installed) before tightening them.

perhaps you could remove the brackets from the case and hold them in a bench vise to tighten everything, then bolt the brackets back on the case.



I have done that last one....but did not want to mention it...as it can be a bit of a pain with some prying for alignment depending on how well the bushings are made.
Last time I did it that way there was lots of cursing on one side (the fault of the casting of the bushing)...and the shroud must be off so its not a quicky replacement in the driveway.

Also....its worth it to mention to pay attention to the crush or compression level (amount of engine weight) that is applied to these bushings. There is a factory spec somewhere. Ray
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surfbus23
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 3:50 pm    Post subject: Re: Keeping motor mounts straight while torquing Reply with quote

Thanks all! A little custom shim and a screwdriver and I got them snugged up perfectly at 14ft lb and in nice alignment.


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