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Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 9:46 am    Post subject: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

Sorry....this is from June and I forgot to finish and post it:

Because a discussion started in the Bay window bus forum about frozen vacuum advance and then morphed into maintenance lube and condition of the breaker plates….I thought I would include a link to this thread in that excellent discussion.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/posting.php?mode=reply&t=679935

Some of these are pictures taken quite a while ago and some yesterday. They are part of a D-jet specific distributor refurb I was going to install sooner or later. Since it started with that…I will not clutter up the bay forum with all of this. It’s easier to just link to it.

While the breaker plates for combination vacuum and mechanical advance distributors have some differences (the one Furgo shows in his thread is a late one similar to early watercooled distributors)….any of these will drop into early and late distributors ranging from type 1, 2, 3 and 4 cars.

While I am a pretty fair hand at rebuilding distributors…I am nowhere near the historical knowledge and expertise of Glenn Ring and tasb. So this is not about overall distributor rebuilding….this is about the details of the points breaker plates and accuracy of them.

I learned a long time ago that with any of the injection systems with non-ECU controlled advance (L-jet, D-jet, CIS, CIS-E…pretty much anything with a distributor and an advance unit)….because our control method (vacuum) IS so crude and has so little resolution….the smoother you can make it, the more incremental it will be and the more effect it will have on tuning and drivability.

This is an early to mid 70’s breaker plate assembly from a 022 905 205 A, H F or P and/or a 021 905 205 A, B C, K or L…or virtually any type 3.
This plate is in my “rebuildable” core pile due to one fact….its largely “FLAT” and unbent.
It will never be usable for points again but can be used for a Pertronix module. I will get to the reason for that in the text It was found in a distributor in a car that had been filled with rain water. The distributor body and shaft was shot…rusted…..corroded and worn out in the first place.

I chose this one to take pictures of because it has virtually every wear related “ill” you can think of. I wanted to show the small details that you really need to be looking at when “blueprinting” a breaker plate for best vacuum advance action for tune-ability, drivability and overall longevity.

The plate set:

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You can see the heavy divot worn by the ball. This is NOT just from excessive pressure and lack of lubrication. This is caused by actual rust/galvanic action. There is more of this in several places on this plate.

Remember I noted that this plate set was wet and corroded. It also has tough, stringy, dried grease that was most probably a wheel bearing grease.
Bearing greases typically have metals as EP ingredients mixed with oil and a “saponifier “or thickening agent.
As they get very old, mixed with moisture and break down they become very corrosive. So you had the metallic content from the grease, the polished steel ball and the nickel plate of the point plate and the blued spring steel of the spring cup. Among all of those metal charges and with rain water it would be a wonder if you DIDN’T have a high level of galvanic or polarity/charge based corrosion.

More on this in a minute.

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You can see the wear spot under the hook/finger. It has rusted because the nickel plating has worn off because it has worn so much

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A view without the lower plate and finger

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The gap here is excessive and is NOT just because off the plating wear. The plating wear is only about .001” to .002” of this .010” gap.

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You can see the angle on the finger. It looks like the PO bent the finger upward slightly probably because it was dragging because there was no more plating and no smooth surface underneath or during disassembly at some point.

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This is what a .003” gap looks like.

NOTE: Also because the ball and spring have tension on them this edge of the plate can lift slightly if there is too much pressure on the ball. Excessive gap between the finger and plate allows the plate angle to change when it lifts. This causes the advance arm to cock on the advance plate lug. This wears the advance arm hole crooked an also can wear on the lug itself. You can just barely see the wear ledge in the photo below.

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This is the main issue that makes this plate set unusable for points again (at least the top plate). Notice how thin the edge of the center guide ring is directly across from the ball.

Remember we were talking about the galvanic corrosion of the spring ball earlier. It’s a good bet that some of this wear to the inner support ring was also galvanic.

Why is it no longer usable for points?:

Because…..since the ball exerts pressure both downward on the plate and laterally…pushing the plate away from the ball and spring, the inner ring will always “guide” on that worn thin surface. As the plate is rotated by the advance unit arm….as the plate rotates onto the thicker, un-worn area of the inner ring….the plate gets pushed in the direction of the ball and spring…by “cam” action.
This means that it gets CLOSER to the ball and spring.
Since the points are mounted on the plate on side of the plate that is worn….as the plate advances and moves toward the ball and spring…like a cam…the cam of the distributor shaft effectively gets closer to the other side of the points plate. This causes the rubbing block of the points to open the points wider gap by several thousandths.

A points set will change dwell from this. A magnetic disc style Pertronix or Compufire would largely not notice this.

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Since the plating on the glide ring is so rough….I used 320 grit valve grinding compound to de-plate and smooth the ring area. It took about a minute. You can see its dark gray now without the plating.

The rust specs that are still on it…are actual pits where the metal rusted under the plating. They will not be an issue.

NOTE: now that this area has no nickel plate it MUST be kept lubed to prevent rust.

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Then I cut a disc of 2000 grit wet/dry paper and stuck it with spray adhesive to one side of the plate pair to polish the glide ring

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I alternately did this to both plates. It took about five minutes. It is as smooth as glass now even though the below surface level grooves and pits make it “look” rough. If yours does not have rust but just grooves…just polish with 2000 grit and the plating will not be worn away.

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The divots under the ball and the rough rusted area under the finger took less than two minutes to clean up with the gray # 425 rubber abrasive wheel from Dremel. Watch your speed. About 5000 rpm is all it takes.

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Advance arm at rest (no vacuum)

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When vacuum is applied it drops. This is also responsible for some of the wear to the hole in the arm and the lug on the breaker plate. Not all advance arms do this…not all drop. Some rise.

This wear point can be fixed with a nylon washer for a #4 or #5 screw. You will need to widen the ID slightly but the thickness ranges from .048” to .070” depending on which #4 or #5 washer you select. Here is an example part # from McMaster Carr # 90295A370

You can get smaller and larger ID or thickness. A bag of 100 is about $5.

These are also good parts for putting around or under the advance weight pins to reduce friction. I put a thin nylon washer on the top and bottom of the advance arm hole under the E-clip to bush the arm to prevent up and down motion. This up and down motion also wastes linear movement and can lose from 1°-3° of vacuum advance when it gets really bad.

Updated 9-11-2017…Sorry I will finish this shortly.
Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

What a great post Ray. Very concise, detailed with great pictures.

My question is WHERE DID YOU GET that trashed breaker plate? Wow.. That distributor it came off of must have been a very high mileage unit. I have restored a few hundred distributors and have only seen one distributor with that kind of wear. The heavily worn distributor I'm speaking off came off an engine that spent many thousands of miles on dirt roads. The advance weights were oblong and their pivot pins were heavily worn. The main shaft bushings were also worn to the point of slop between them and the main shaft.

What did the rest of the internals of this distributor look like?
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Last edited by wcfvw69 on Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 11:26 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
What a great post Ray. Very concise, detailed with great pictures.

My question is WHERE DID YOU GET that trashed breaker plate? Wow.. That distributor it came off of must of been a very high mileage. I have restored a few hundred distributors and have only seen one distributor with that kind of wear. The heavily worn distributor I'm speaking off came off an engine that spent many thousands of miles on dirt roads. The advance weights were oblong and their pivot pins were heavily worn. The main shaft bushings were also worn to the point of slob between them and the main shaft.

What did the rest of the internals of this distributor look like?


Actually the shaft and body were pretty good.

It was in a cardboard box in the back seat of a 411 or 412 ...or maybe even a type 3. The windows were out and it had been rained on quite a bit. That where the rust came from.

And....ot really doesn't have to have had huge miles on it.....though I would say it had over 100k on it.....to be that worn.
It had just obviously been totally neglected for its entire life after it left dealer care. No lube at all.....and what was there was pushed out of the way and crusty.

I think a large portion of the wear to the center ring was due to a combination of grit/filth....and ham handed adjustment. The ball spring pressure was excessive...as can be seen from the wear.....and that side loaded the plate. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

I just restored a 205AL distributor that was shipped over from Europe for a customer. He knew the distributors actual miles which were 120k. It had never been exposed to water and had not been apart since new. I was shocked at how mint the break plate and the rest of the internals were inside it. Almost no wear. The distributor had been oiled on the wick through it's life. The fiber washers were in place but were worn, dry and brittle after 40+ years of heat cycles. The vacuum can was also blown.

It was a great case study to how these Bosch distributors last when treated well.

These pictures below are of a poor distributor that wasn't loved. This VW spent way too many miles on dirt roads where it ingested lots of dust, dirt and grit.

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It was dumpster bait and the wear looked like every Cardone rebuilt Bosch unit that people had bought from Autozone or other FLAPS location.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

Yes....I believe from my experiences ...that most of the wear these units get...when its bad...is from dust and grit and rust.

If one were to simply oil and lube the proper parts (with the correct lube) spend 30 minutes every 2-3 years stripping the distributor down and getting rid of the grit and dust...they could last forever.

The main point of working with that breaker plate was not actually to restore it though I might just to have one more spare...but was mainly to illustrate for the other conversation....where all the little cumulative wear points are that need to be lubed for, sometimes corrected and paid attention to because they can affect the vacuum advance. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

The drop of oil on the felt disc under the rotor will lube the shaft(s), but how does one lube the advance and plate without disassembly?

I noticed some distributors appeared to have an oval sheet metal plug near the bottom. Is that usable as a "lube access port"?

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And what about those two funny "buttons" on the bottom... vents or drainage ports? View from inside:
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Lots of little design features I know nothing about...

(pictures stolen from the gallery)
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

The advance plate can be lubed....in the interim...with a few drops of oil in the right places.

I say in the interim...because oil attracts dust. So....if you keep it lubed by adding oil without disassembly...sooner or later you will need to remove and clean the plates.

Really they are not that hard to pull out even without removing the distributor. You need a good offset screwdriver...and a magnet Wink for the inevitable dropped screw.

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/tools/Ratchets-S...gIz2_D_BwE

One of the problems that people do not realize...is that grease an oil on sliding parts that "open to the air"...gathers moisture. That moisture cannot evaporate out once its worked in. This is responsible for the vast amount of rust between the plates. Its worthwhile to just get in the habit as part of a tuneup...to just clean and lube the plates.

As far as I know...the oval port on the side marks a distributor...as "late"...meaning it was made in the era where digifant and other injection types were starting to become normal.

On the digifant distributor (and others) where vacuum advance was still used...they had a different breaker plate with the vacuum advance lug on the bottom side. The advance unit arm went through at a lower point in the body and the oval access hole was to be able to unhook the advance arm from the lug.

The two holes in the bottom are condensation drains. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
The two holes in the bottom are condensation drains. Ray

Ozone vents, so there's no explosion bursting the cap.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 3:51 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

Does that metal cap provide for access to lube them? Maybe a rubber plug could fit after removal ('cause I'm sure no one offers those metal caps for sale!).

EDIT: Looks like it from this photo:
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Those bottom vents (why two?) always seem to clog with oil and dirt, so they wouldn't work very well as vents after a time in service. Any suggestions for keeping them clear?

I've never had to completely strip a distributor, but I will be soon to find out why my original unit failed. How do you safely remove the little circlip under the rotor?!

EDIT: From another thread, hazetguy posted:
Quote:
Yes, removing the internals first makes getting that circlip off so much easier.
I use a drift on the part of the shaft that is sticking up above the clip, hold the upper part by the lobe section, then one tap with a hammer pops the lower section out of the clip. Easy, fast, no problem.


Sorry if I'm taking this off-track, but I figure folks who read this thread will probably dive in, and these points will confront them. I didn't see a sticky with a generic distributor D&A procedure so here go my questions...

Here are the closest I could find:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662515
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=558307
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
[quote="raygreenwood"The two holes in the bottom are condensation drains. Ray

Ozone vents, so there's no explosion bursting the cap.[/quote]

Had never heard that....but the points arc does produce ozone. While ozone is not flammable.....it can act as an oxidizer if you have anything flammable in there.

Interesting! Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 5:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

KTPhil wrote:



I've never had to completely strip a distributor, but I will be soon to find out why my original unit failed. How do you safely remove the little circlip under the rotor?!

EDIT: From another thread, hazetguy posted:
Quote:
Yes, removing the internals first makes getting that circlip off so much easier.
I use a drift on the part of the shaft that is sticking up above the clip, hold the upper part by the lobe section, then one tap with a hammer pops the lower section out of the clip. Easy, fast, no problem.


Sorry if I'm taking this off-track, but I figure folks who read this thread will probably dive in, and these points will confront them. I didn't see a sticky with a generic distributor D&A procedure so here go my questions...

Here are the closest I could find:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662515
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=558307


I remove the clip the same way as Hazetguy. Installing it....I put it in position centered with a pick and a dab of grease. Then I take an old 1/4" long reach socket whose nose is the diameter of the clip....and the inner bore is just larger than the nub sticking up that the circlip pops over......and whose OD has been sanded to just fit the ID of the shaft.

Then push down hard and it pushes the ring down and spreads it as it goes and installs it.

I have no idea where that socket went to.....but I will not be needing it. I am going to grind that nub off....drill the boss and put in a screw with flat washer. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:38 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
KTPhil wrote:



I've never had to completely strip a distributor, but I will be soon to find out why my original unit failed. How do you safely remove the little circlip under the rotor?!

EDIT: From another thread, hazetguy posted:
Quote:
Yes, removing the internals first makes getting that circlip off so much easier.
I use a drift on the part of the shaft that is sticking up above the clip, hold the upper part by the lobe section, then one tap with a hammer pops the lower section out of the clip. Easy, fast, no problem.


Sorry if I'm taking this off-track, but I figure folks who read this thread will probably dive in, and these points will confront them. I didn't see a sticky with a generic distributor D&A procedure so here go my questions...

Here are the closest I could find:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662515
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=558307


I remove the clip the same way as Hazetguy. Installing it....I put it in position centered with a pick and a dab of grease. Then I take an old 1/4" long reach socket whose nose is the diameter of the clip....and the inner bore is just larger than the nub sticking up that the circlip pops over......and whose OD has been sanded to just fit the ID of the shaft.

Then push down hard and it pushes the ring down and spreads it as it goes and installs it.

I have no idea where that socket went to.....but I will not be needing it. I am going to grind that nub off....drill the boss and put in a screw with flat washer. Ray


The easiest way to remove the distributor cam securing clip is to remove the entire mainshaft with cams assembly from the distributor housing. Then, once it's removed you can slide a flat tipped screw driver under an advance weight and pop up the distributor cam. I leave the felt in place so the clip doesn't fly off into never never land.

To install that little clip, I use two very small flat tipped screw drivers. It takes practice but after doing a couple hundred, I have it installed in less than a minute. Don't ask me how long it took the first time.. Wink

These original Bosch distributors are all 40+ years old. The majority I see have never been apart and are badly in need of cleaning and re lubrication. You can put some oil on the advance weight pivots through that access plug and on the wick. However, it's best to fully take them apart to clean the grit and dirt out, assess the condition of the parts and then use distributor grease and oil to lube the appropriate spots.

Many people believe Bosch never intended for these 70's DVDA's and especially the 1974 and newer SVDA distributors to be taken apart. Especially after 1974 when the breaker plates were no longer held in place with screws. I don't know if I've ever heard a definitive answer to this. The 034 is the toughest to take apart w/out damaging it so there could be some truth to it.

I'm not sure Bosch or VW expected people to still be using these distributors 45 years after they were made.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 7:49 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
The 034 is the toughest to take apart w/out damaging it so there could be some truth to it.

I ruined a few before I sat down and studied the internals before I finally figured out the trick.

There is a way to do it, which is what I assume they did when first assembled.

The screwdriver between the mainshaft and upper advance can damage the parts. Best is to use a soft jaw vise on the cam and a punch with a light hammer. A light wack on the punch and the clip pops off.
The get it back on, use a 6mm deep socket. Drop the thrust washer on, center the "C" clip with pick and slide the 6mm socket in. A light tap with a small hammer and it's on... easy peazy.

Now I just gave away my secrets.

It still takes some experience, genuine parts and a machine to confirm it's working like new.

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Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Mon Sep 11, 2017 8:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

[quote="Glenn"]
wcfvw69 wrote:
The 034 is the toughest to take apart w/out damaging it so there could be some truth to it.


Glenn wrote:

I ruined a few before I sat down and studied the internals before I finally figured out the trick.


Yup, there are specific ways to take the 034's apart so you don't damage any of the NLA parts inside. A great example of experience matters. This is why I shutter when someone who's never taken one apart does it. They are guaranteed to break it.

Glenn wrote:
The screwdriver between the mainshaft and upper advance can damage the parts.


Doing it correctly damages nothing and quickly pops off the clip. Knowing where to place the tool and what to pry off is key.

One thing is for sure. The 034's were a well made distributor. After they are restored correctly and then matched to the correct carb/s, they work beautifully.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 6:33 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

Thanks for the pictures!

Is that plastic plug factory? I thought I had seen some that were plastic.

I would swear I have seen some with blue plastic plugs but had know way of knowing if they were remanufactured or not.

I had not thought about it being a lubrication access port so much as advance arm access on early water cooled distributors.

As I noted....I use the same shaft disassembly method with the clip as Glenn and Hazetguy.

In the beginning....I used the two screwdriver method as well.....and it does take practice. The mechanic I used to go to in hugh school before I learned to work on my own stuff.....showed me the socket and punch trick.
Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 8:08 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Thanks for the pictures!

Is that plastic plug factory? I thought I had seen some that were plastic.


Ray, they are original and factory. I see the 009's with the steel caps.

raygreenwood wrote:

In the beginning....I used the two screwdriver method as well.....and it does take practice. The mechanic I used to go to in hugh school before I learned to work on my own stuff.....showed me the socket and punch trick.
Ray


I made a sleeve to push the clip on the shaft like Glenn discribes but mis placed it and have been to busy to make another. Again, it only takes me a few seconds to pop the clip back on with the two small screw drivers.

One thing I didn't note about the 034's and many of the other 1974 and newer Bosch distributors is their weak point being the spring holders/retainers are plastic and very fragile. This is why you have to be surgical in how you take them apart and reassemble them.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
One thing I didn't note about the 034's and many of the other 1974 and newer Bosch distributors is their weak point being the spring holders/retainers are plastic and very fragile. This is why you have to be surgical in how you take them apart and reassemble them.

Amen... they are old, went through many heat cycles and extremely fragile.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

Glenn wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote:
One thing I didn't note about the 034's and many of the other 1974 and newer Bosch distributors is their weak point being the spring holders/retainers are plastic and very fragile. This is why you have to be surgical in how you take them apart and reassemble them.

Amen... they are old, went through many heat cycles and extremely fragile.


What exactly was the range of vehicles where the 034's were primarily used?

These details sound exactly like the issues with disassembly of the early (Mk 1 and 2) water cooled cars...some with digifant...some with CIS.

Taking those apart you could break more than you could salvage...especially trying to get advance units off...and get some of the hall units out....and the plastic bearing sleeves on the advance unit weights on some models.

It all just gets crispy. Ray
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 2:36 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

I've seen those plastic spring retainers used starting in 1974 on the 034's. They were used on many different Bosch distributors that I've taken apart up to 1979 FI units. The German 009 used the plastic spring retainers as well.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 12, 2017 9:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Distributor breaker plate inspection/troubleshooting Reply with quote

raygreenwood wrote:
Thanks for the pictures!

Is that plastic plug factory? I thought I had seen some that were plastic.

I would swear I have seen some with blue plastic plugs but had know way of knowing if they were remanufactured or not.

I had not thought about it being a lubrication access port so much as advance arm access on early water cooled distributors.

As I noted....I use the same shaft disassembly method with the clip as Glenn and Hazetguy.

In the beginning....I used the two screwdriver method as well.....and it does take practice. The mechanic I used to go to in hugh school before I learned to work on my own stuff.....showed me the socket and punch trick.
Ray



Bosch used both plastic and metal access doors and, yes they do work good as access for lubrication. I've not seen anything with a blue cover up through the late 1970's. The doors can be reused but they do show that they have been removed. I rarely come across one that has been opened before.
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