Engine Rebuild Shortblock

[mygreenbus]

I am going to start to gather parts for an engine rebuild/replacement in the next year or so. My '72 is a 1.7, I want to buy another block so that when the time comes I can just put the new engine in. Is this the time to go to a 1.8 or 2.0 and if so is there a particular block I am looking for? Over all I'd just like a little more highway cruising speed, not a hot rod. Any thoughts or maybe I missed a post in my search. Thanks
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'72 Bus

[Wildthings]

The 1.7 and a 1.8 short blocks are essentially the same, while the 2.0 uses a longer stroke. You will get a 10% increase in torque by going to a 1.8 and still have an engine that is happy spinning pretty fast, while a 2.0 will have a big step up in torque (~30%) but not like the higher revs as much. Whichever way you go, go with a slightly hotter cam and get quality headwork done.

[mygreenbus]

[mygreenbus]

I can use a block from a 914, correct? Its only the way the accessories are hung that's different? I may have a line on one.
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'72 Bus

[Tcash]

[mygreenbus]

Trash thanks. Just wanted to know my options.
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'72 Bus

[Tcash]

[Whaanga]

Per Tcash's comment about the 914 flywheel in a bus - how is it different?
I have a 914 engine in my bus and had the engine out a few months ago. I had the flywheel resurfaced with new pilot bearing, bolt plate, felt washer, end play, shims, etc. and everything came together just fine- now I'm wondering if I have the wrong flywheel (I think mine is 210mm).

[Vanapplebomb]

The difference between the 914 flywheel and vw 411/412/bus flywheels is the starter ring gear teath. The 914 teath go deeper into the bellhousing by a few mm. Sometimes this can cause issues with the starter engaging if you have mismatched flywheel/bellhousumgs.. The other thing is that the pilot shaft bearing is pressed into the center of the flywheel on a 914 while the 411/412/72+bus have the pilot shaft bearing pressed into the crankshaft. That all has to do with the 411/412/72+bus having longer pilot shafts in the transmissions.
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1800 Type 4 Berrien 295

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=487021

[mygreenbus]

I'll add a 914 question since the block came up, are the heads the same as the Bus? Usable on the Bus?
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'72 Bus

[williamM]

there are a few small differences in the blocks and heads over the years- I'll see how many I can remember- maybe some one can chime in with the prefixes.

Heads varied on a few points, but could be "Made to fit" on most engines with flycutting the 1700 to fit the 1800 and bigger- the combustion chamber had some differences in stepped heads vs ones that had head gaskets (Not used any more)- valve sizes changed- with the 1800 having the biggest valves and temp sensor mounts were there for FI. General consensus among the current builders is to get new heads- and have them fixed right out of the box, as you will be disappointed in 25 to 30 thou miles.

1- the first ones had carbs and solid lifters. This meant the mechanical fuel pump ran off a small rod that ran off the back of the cam. - so there is a mount and some brass bushings back there and an oil feed that went past there and to a 2 nd oil pressure relief hiding by and below cyl #1,

2- they moved on to FI- the FI block had no mechanical fuel pump but still had the casting bump for the mount and the oil pressure relief.

3- The first hydraulic lifters did away with the oil pressure relief valve.

So you can get any combo if these features as the internals of the engine only changed to add the 2.0lt crank and rods. and there is a difference in the cams when running hydraulics , or manual trans or auto trans , maybe a change when they left carbs and went to FI.

So- check your case numbers and go to Samba tech- and see what your options are.

The 914 parts are for the most interchangeable, with -as mentioned- the position of the dip stick and the front shroud. and the pilot bearing for the trans input shaft -( I parrot here as not much of a porch guy.)- that is a religion of it's own.

Be aware of the 2 available alternators - they don't take the same cooling boot, but do run the same regulator- (from a reliable source- the internet)-

Speaking of which- There is a lot of BS out there- but on samba- there are brilliant old timers and younger guys who can read that will pretty much keep this forum accurate- ( just post something here that is wrong and see what happens)

Show us your engine build and if stuck- it's ALL been done before. Check out tcash post about the oil screen pick up and a collection of threads you should read - have fun- be patient-
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some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.

opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.

Don't step in any!

[Wasted youth]

[lil-jinx]

While you are deciding what size engine you are building,you should also be thinking about your transmission options.The slower turning,more powerful 2.0 should be mated to a 6 rib trans.
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https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620186
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=668799
1974 Bay Westfalia. she likes to be called Ethel.
1968 Dune Buggy
1974 parts bus
A smart man learns from his mistakes,a very smart man learns from other's mistakes.

[raygreenwood]

To kind of further clarify:

Engine case wise: short of the vanagon cases with the cast over oil chimney all of the type 4 cases save for very minor changes....are essentially equal.

411 and 412 cases used both the vertical dipstick like the 914 and the lower dipstick tube like the bus.

Do not search for a "good" case based on what kind of dipstick it has. The lower boss for the bus style dipstick was cast into all of them. Its short work to drill out the lower bus to use a bust style dipstick and just as easy to plug a vertical dipstick mount hole.

411 and 412 cases came with and without the carburettor fuel pump just like the bus. The mounting boss is cast into all of them its a little careful work to either drill that out or to block it off but do not turn down a good case based on the fuel pump boss.

There were two crank sizes....66mm and 71mm. All cases take either one with no mods.
There were three rods. A 66mm 1.7, a 66mm 1.8 and a 71mm 2.0. The 1.7 and 1.8 are functionally interchangeable. None of these cranks and rods are very difficult to find.

There were 3 syock cylinder diameters. 90mm= 1.7, 93mm= 1.8 and 94mm= 2.0.

All cases take all of these cylinders as the OD is the same.

There is one oil pump for type 4 and many type 1 pumps can be made to fit.

Many of the 1.7L 411 and 412 and most of the 914 engines came with a windage tray. That is interchangeable to any engine and is good to have with a few mods.

All 411, 412 and 914 engines came with solid lifters. Bus after a certain date came with hydraulic lifters (cant remmeber when). There were subtle changes to the galley areas in the later cases used for hydraulics. While probably beneficial.....it makes no difference really you can install solids or hydraulics on any of these engines.

Heads: there were two primary 1.7L head castings. There were minor differences in hiw they were cast but they are fully interchangeable. There were several equipment configurations....california, fuel injection and carbed. All can be made to do any function with a little work.

I "think" there were two 1.8 head castings as well again with minor casting differences. Fully interchangeable. Plus there are a lot of aftermarket AMC 1.8L heads over the years.

There were two primary 2.0L liter head castings. One for bus and one for 914. They are totally different and require different sheet metal but can use the same intakes and will interchange. But the 2.0 914 heads are not what you want on a bus unless you really plan what you are doing.
There are now new castings on the market for 914 2.0 heads.

As mentioned the 914 specific flywheel has a different ring gear position and the pilot bearing pressed into the flywheel. That can be done on any of the four available flywheels....210, 215, 228 bus and 228 914.

All of the cranks from any of the vehicles has the bore in the end of the crank for the standard type 4 pilot bearing in the end of the crank.

The only things....in my opinion....you really need to shop for in "core" cases....is for completeness (its nice to get one with all the studs and hardware and as much sheet metal and accessories as possible).....but even more important at this late point in time....is to look for a case that has both sides matching and has the straightest crank and cam journal bores, with no cracks, case spigots that have not been cut, cylinder studs that have not been stripped or cracked etc.

Because of those most important items.....I would actually be more advantageous to shop for bare cases so you can check those items before you spend money. Rsy

[Wildthings]

Later Porsche engines used three bolt heads, meaning that the intake manifolds bolted to the heads with three bolts and not four like the Bus heads. This may apply to all Porsche 2.0 heads, not sure.

[raygreenwood]

[mygreenbus]

[Tcash]

[mygreenbus]

Based on the input so far, I like the idea of the 1800.
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'72 Bus

[mygreenbus]

So I can find plenty of 1700 cases local. And if I understand the posts the 1800 heads will fit the 1700 case with some slight mods?
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'72 Bus