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EJ25 Swap - PLANNING
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h00drat
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 4:28 pm    Post subject: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

Hey everyone. First off, I've done my fair share of reading on the topic, so don't put me on blast. This is a thread for my own sake to start planning my swap.

What I have is a 1987.5 Wolfsburg Weekender Tin Top. 2.1 liter stock motor, stock automatic 3 speed tranny. Van has over 250k miles on it. Unknown if/when the motor or tranny were rebuilt, but assumed that at least the motor has been replaced or rebuilt.

The van is running fine. However I have seen enough threads to know that it's only a matter of time before the motor and or tranny decide to go out. So I am planning ahead. Who knows, maybe I'll want the power and just do the swap before it goes out.

So here's where I am at based on my research...

1. I am leaning towards the EJ25 over the EJ22.
2. I would do the swap myself.
3. I need to put together a solid parts list.
4. I'm leaning toward Kennedy Engineering for swap parts needed.
5. Would pick up a used motor or parts car to pull a used motor from for the swap.

Things that I could use some help with...

1. What is the "holy grail" year and model of EJ25 I should look at? Living in Oregon, I can scrounge up a used or totaled Subaru for about $500. I would make sure timing belt and head gaskets had recently been done, or I would do them myself while the motor is out. But it sounds like some years are better than others.
2. Assuming I stick with the 3 speed auto, what do I need to do to make this work? Am I going to have any obvious issues? While the motor is out, what sort of service should be done to the tranny to make it last another 100k miles?
3. Complete parts list. I know that's a big ask and one that I can assemble with more reading...but worth a shot.
4. Things to beware of in general. "Gotcha" moments.

That's all for now. Like I said, just planning ahead. I've done my reading on all available motor swaps and it just sounds like this is the best bang for your buck. 1.8t, TDI, Subaru Turbo or any other VW motor are going to cost too much, and probably stretch the limits of my mechanical abilities.

Thanks in advance for any advice from those of you with past experience.
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:04 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

Don't go for the cheapest donor you can find and no junkyard cars or engines that have been sitting a long time. At this point all the donor cars will have high miles but some of them will be on their second engine and still cheap because of other issues. 2000-2004 2.5 is what I would look for with under 75K miles on a rebuilt motor. I wouldn't rule out a 2.2. There are more years from 90 up to 2000s that you can go with and there are more out there and they are cheap. I'd still look for a rebuilt motor though. Later models will cost a lot even with unacceptably high miles. You want a running car and ideally one you can drive around for a while to make sure the engine is good and doesn't burn a lot of oil. Otherwise people are rebuilding them to make sure they will last.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:17 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

jmranger wrote:
Possibly helpful:
https://smallcar.com/the-latest-subaru-engines.html
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=4861355#4861355


This may be a helpful thread too:
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=675283&highlight=subaru+engine+years
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Last edited by termuehlen on Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:27 pm; edited 1 time in total
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davevickery
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 5:26 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

Here is an example of what I would be looking for.
https://corvallis.craigslist.org/cto/d/subaru-forester/6304621305.html


Another way to go would be find the cheapest junkyard donor and just have the engine rebuilt.
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bobbyblack Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:06 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

I have been slowly getting ready for the eventual NEED to do something. From the very minute I got my '87 full Westy in '15, I started accumulating bits and pieces. I also started vacuuming up any and all information I could find to read (weidefamily.net/vanagon) and watch (vanaru/busaru) and reaching out to those kind people who offer those guides. Brent is an awesome, kind, and generous soul, very much available for email conversation, from my experience. Boxer Mic has also been instrumental in my gathering, and harness work, and also will offer ideas via email.

I would mention that the Tom Shiels Thermostat kit is a good thing to just plan on getting, it will make your life so much better, and it fits a variety of Subaru engines. http://subaruvanagon.com/tom/ts_conversion.htm

One thing Boxer Mic left engraved in my head was that planning the kit you want is best done well ahead. He mentioned that he has had great experience with the Kennedy kit, and usually only goes to other vendors if Kennedy has not been contacted on an order far enough in advance. (Unless he is doing a job for a customer, and they have decided on another kit, etc) Also noting that many vendors carry the Kennedy stuff, or something so very like the Kennedy kit that it may be just rebranded, or an outright copy. Kennedy, of course, has the advantage of being the first kit out there, in terms of historic info I have gone through.

Some things I wish I had done BEFORE I started pulling the engine from my deer-bonked '93, would be to just purchase an engine hoist and stand, like on the CL... I did, of course get a stand afterwords... DON'T do this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Hope things go well for you on your journey!
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dlb154
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

[quote="bobbyblack"]DON'T do this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


quote]

X2 - Don't do that! Very Happy
Using magic to pull an engine is not good planning... For the life of me, I can't figure out how using 2x lumber would even work Confused

Can't stop laughing over here after seeing that picture...
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dlb154
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 6:59 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

h00drat,

Since you're in Oregon, look at the nearest Copart yard. I believe you do not need a broker license to purchase from the Copart auction in Oregon. Look for a side/rear totaled Subaru that has low miles and will likely still run. Nevada requires a broker's license to bid on the auction.

The Reno Copart yard will let you in to look at the vehicles. Poke your nose around and see what looks worth buying. I agree that buying a running street legal vehicle makes sense, but it's pretty obvious when a car has been in an accident (hard to happen if not legally in operation on the road) and the insurance company totals the vehicle and puts it out for auction.

You'll even find vehicles that are perfectly fine and just up for auction.

Personally I'd go with a 2003 2.5 SOHC or a 93/94 2.2 - plan on doing the head gaskets, timing belt, water pump on any pulled engine while out.
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bobbyblack Premium Member
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

dlb154 wrote:

Can't stop laughing over here after seeing that picture...


Well... Hmm.. I do so wish I had a video of it. Was actually very slow and meticulous. You just can't see the floor jack. Its between/under the engine and car in the pic. Also, I had an 8 foot pipe and 4 teenagers that you also don't see. It still would have gone viral if I had done a video tho! Still, I passed up 3 $100 cherry pickers on the CL that I could easily have had, and would like to have still. My saving that $100 was just plain dumb. But, yes, makes for a funny picture of how not to do something.
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dlb154
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 8:00 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

My hat is off to you Bobbyblack! You obviously are a clever person and able to think beyond the average person's range.

I bet those teenagers learned from the experience. Since you all lived to tell about it, you may have some future engineers on your hands.

Rather than say you saved $100, I'd say you earned it by schooling those kids! Nice job. Would love to have seen a video.
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Jake de Villiers
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 9:32 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

If you're looking for a used engine and harness, John Lemley Gaston, Oregon is a very reliable source.

I got my engine from him and its exactly what he said it was.
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 14, 2017 10:50 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

I know everyone has the same story that they will never sell their van. But when that decision comes and you have a 2.5 Subaru in it, it will be hard to sell to anyone in California ( a large market ) for vans. Just something to think about if toggling between a 2.2 and a 2.5.
I have a 2.2 and it is damn good. A buddy has a Frankensubie and it is damn good plus a little. I recently spent 2 weeks in Europe driving a 2.5 converted Syncro and it spoiled me a little. I can still drive my 2.2 without missing that little extra.
I prefer The small car Engine mount and oil pan and the use of an adapter plate over the bell housing as there are no clutch issues and when you need a Disc or Pressure plate it is all VW as well as the starter. The down side is that if you waste the flywheel you may to wait to have one made.
If you haven't already done it, replace your radiator and coolant pipes when you do the conversion, as they say "Cry once".
My Buddies van that I used has a Junkyard take out that had belts and tensioners done to it but it has a small appetite for oil. So think about that when buying something used and not getting into it.
Plan your conversion, it is all just Nuts and bolts and plug and play. It has been done so many times there is little to no guess work.

Stacy
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h00drat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 12:48 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

Wow. So much good information in one day. Thanks for all of this. It will take me a while to digest it all.

Some initial thoughts...

- Good call on replaced motor Subaru. Could be a good way to go.
- Thanks for all the tips on motor sources in Oregon.
- I will definitely use an actual engine hoist, not 2x4's.
- Good insight on 2.5 vs 2.2 and California legality. We don't even have emissions testing where I live, so these things slip my mind. Will consider it. OBDII is one reason I am leaning towards 2.5.
- Thanks for the tips on parts for the installation. I'll dig through in more detail.

Any thoughts on running the stock 3 speed tranny with either the 2.2 or 2.5? Will my gearing be OK? I'm currently running 27.5" tires on the stock 14" steelies...but could see myself going to 15 or 16 wheels some day. Would like to be able to cruise at 70-75 comfortably (like I can now with the stock 2.1). Looking forward to maybe some day being able to climb hills at a normal, or more close to normal speed.
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bobbyblack Premium Member
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:21 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

The Auto has been mentioned a few times by some great folks here, who know their stuff, and mention that it is a good platform. Not really needing to change the gearing to accommodate the normally aspirated Subaru engine options. Your tire choices are interesting tho: You have 27.5" overall diameter? Better check the spare, if you have one and if its in the clamshell under the nose. I've seen too much info on this forum regarding the spare/clamshell size disorder even as tall as 26.8" Then, if your spare is not the same as your other (rear in 2wd, ALL in Syncro) tires, you could toast your tranny.

The deal with the steel rims vs alloy: helpful in terms of rotational inertia, as the alloy rims (usually) are much lighter, hence better response from the engine to the road. Of course, the consensus seems to be that the Mercedes CLK 320 rims from '98-'00 or close are a near perfect fit, and they have become so popular that they are really scarce AND expensive now... Chris from T3 has all kind of help for nearly any rim you want to run tho, so look and see what rims make you happy, Chris will help you out!

I'd mention that the Tire thread in the Stickies is a good place to dig up info on what wheel sizes are well covered for the nature of our beasts (Legally speaking, you need C Load or better on these rigs) which are technically a 1 ton (load capacity) truck. Thats more cargo than a Ford F-250. Don't go cheap on tires. In some states, you can't get a shop to mount less than C Load rated on any Type2, regardless if its a T1, T2, T3, or T4(Eurovan) [US or North American market]. I've been up against that problem before. Its not pretty to have your rig on the hoist at the tire shop, and all your old rubber off the rims only to have them tell you the only tires they can put back on and have in stock are $225 each. They can't even legally put your old ones back on in some cases.

Anyway, the first post on the tire thread will help you understand the issue of engine power and tire height. The Transmission and Engine will be fine going a little higher RPM wise, especially the Subaru, from what I've come to understand. Redline is much much higher in Subaru than the stock WBX.
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h00drat
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:25 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

Yeah, I've done a ton of tire research, so I'm familiar with the topic. I suppose you are probably right in that the 3 speed auto will be fine with an NA Suby motor.

My spare is in the clamshell and is likely a tad smaller than the 27.5ers I have on the van. I guess I assumed if I had to use it to get to a tire shop that it wouldn't be the end of the world. Obviously I wouldn't want to drive it hundreds of miles with a smaller spare.

I may to reconsider that based on your comment.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 2:45 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

I had to do a funny dance once with a T4... It somehow got a mismatched spare, and the dash indicator was telling me just how unhappy it was... I got back off the highway as soon as I could and put the blown tire on the back, put the back tire on the front, and put the mismatched tire on the back --- Front Wheel Drive on those.. I should have looked at my spare before I put it on, but I was on an Interstate and kind of stressed out. I was glad the T4 had the dash light.. a T3 wouldn't tell you much, other than groaning a while until it conceded it's Diff.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 3:13 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

I had an EJ22 in my stock auto transmission tin top. It drove quite nicely, particularly around town and on 55 mph or less roads. On the highway you will be cruising along at high rpms just the same as with the WBX unless you change the final drive ratio (I would not recommend that with a 2.2, but I'm unsure about it with a 2.5). You should plan to do a full rebuild on your transmission during your swap. Mine lasted one trip through the Cascades before I cooked it. You should also plan to add an external cooler if you don't already have one. I have heard of some people installing lock-up torque converters with their 2.5 swaps to help reduce the heating of the ATF.

It is a slippery slope when doing a conversion, as it is a great time to do lot's of other work. At a minimum I would recommend replacing the whole cooling system. A good plan and budget will make it all less painful. In general the swap is not hard, but it does take a while, particularly if you are picking away at it a few hours at a time.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:52 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

Go big, or go home.
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Ej22 phase 1 engines are some of the best engines Subaru ever built; very reliable, easy to work on, etc.

All Phase II engines are good, if built & maintained properly.

My plan is to use a Subaru EJ205, STi sized turbo, Subaru 5spd transmission, for my swap planned for this winter.
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 4:59 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

h00drat wrote:


Any thoughts on running the stock 3 speed tranny with either the 2.2 or 2.5? Will my gearing be OK? I'm currently running 27.5" tires on the stock 14" steelies...but could see myself going to 15 or 16 wheels some day. Would like to be able to cruise at 70-75 comfortably (like I can now with the stock 2.1). Looking forward to maybe some day being able to climb hills at a normal, or more close to normal speed.


As others have said, your stock automatic gearing will mean that your engine will be turning at high rpms when cruising that fast. The more horsepower and the harder you drive your automatic, the less likely it is to live a long and happy life. You can upgrade your automatic to four planetary gears. Information on that can be found here:

http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=7811772#7811772
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:05 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

Can someone please explain the pros and cons of:
KEP carrier
vs
Smallcar carrier
vs
RMW carrier?
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PostPosted: Fri Sep 15, 2017 7:07 pm    Post subject: Re: EJ25 Swap - PLANNING Reply with quote

I think you should consider the R & P 3.3.1. Makes cruising at highway speeds doable at 3K RPM as opposed to 4K. It feels like a normal car apart from all the wind and road noise.
I must say that even with the 2.5 going over any real mountains with a loaded Westy is still pedal to the metal and not keeping up with modern traffic.
Still love it though.
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