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1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go
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morphene
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 11:58 am    Post subject: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Hello All,

My name is Morphene. I am from Northern Indiana.
I am young-ish (20) and I know nothing about vehicles (absolutely nothing).

Some of you may remember me as the kid that purchased a Bay for 3500$, while it being a complete rust bucket.

That was around winter time... and well... I still have the bus. I have not sold it.
Why? Well.... I am going to start trying to restore (or at least make it safe to drive). *cowers in fear*

So here we go!

Information on bus:

- Price purchased: $3500.
- Year: 1978
- Engine: ?
- Engine runs: Yes
- Driveable: Yes
- Electronics work: Yes, but messy work.

What is my experience with vehicles: None.

What have I learned that makes me think I can do this?
I just started to read the "Complete Idiot's Guide to Keeping your VW... Alive".
I have the Bentley Manual as well as a resource.
I am just starting to learn about the theory of the bus and how engines work. Currently in like 50 pages.
My boss from work recently taught me how to weld and I have been practicing on both thick metal and sheet metal (17 gauge, burning a lot of holes so still learning).

What do I want to accomplish (list of goals):

1) Replace rotted metal on the frame (crossbeams?).
- The main frame beam that runs down the middle is solid.
- The jack points are rotted and the beam that they are connected to
are as well. Those need replaced.
- Axle Beam needs replaced (whoo! Learned what that is!) has some
rotting. That needs replaced.
2) Perform Engine Maintenance
- Engine is missing some ventilation tubes from that fan that is on top of it.
- Need to replace fuel lines (previous owner appears to have done it,
but for safety, I will do it as well just in case).
- When running, the engine sounds like a harley chopper.
- The exhaust has some holes so they need to be welded up.
3) Electrical re-wiring
- The wiring is a mess. Some running lights do not work.
- One brake light is not working properly.
- Some hanging cables that I do not know what they run to or what they are for. (Next thing you know, it might be something major).

- And then we go from there.

Right now, the frame/body is my main priority, also that is what I feel I might be more capable of handling while I learn the theory and start tinkering with my first engine.

So now here is where I am going to need your help:
- I am going to be reading as much as I can and messing around with my bus to learn as I go, but if I have questions (and they are dumb), I apologize.

- I feel that my first step is to replace/repair the crossbeams, jack points and inner/outer rockers (I did not know what any of those were before the beginning of September, so progress?)

What do you guys honestly recommend? This will take a long time, I am aware of that, but I think I might be capable of at least getting a (crappy-looking but drive-able) bus.

(Side note: For months, my bus would not start up. All I would hear would be a hum when I turned the key.
I thought it might be an electrical issue so I left it at that. Frustrated that no progress was being made, that is when I started reading the books. I learned what a starter and solenoid is, tried troubleshooting, took the risk and purchased a new starter, and it worked. My dad helped me replace it and when we finally heard it trying to engage, we were so happy. That made me want to become more dedicated to this.

I am in college and work a full-time job, but my bills do allow me to spend money on this, so if I have to buy parts, etc., I feel I can afford it. Thank you).


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TomWesty
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 12:08 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

I've seen way worse buses resurrected. For inspiration I turn to Glideking's resurrection of Funky Truck on the split forum. Although he was already a skilled craftsman, he didn't know how to weld before he started his resto and by the end he was doing phenomenal work. You seem to have the right attitude to do this. Best of luck!
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morphene
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 1:21 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Thank you. I will take a look at that thread later today.
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Cap10323
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 2:11 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Dude.
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..Dude

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That beam is holding together by a prayer and the grace of the universe.

I am currently in the process of replacing the beam on my bus due to MUCH less severe rot.

The beam I purchased was not a cheap item alone, and I will be spending almost as much as I spent on the beam itself replacing all of the consumables and safety items.

I am ALL for the resurrection of busses, but given the condition of the main structural components of yours, it is legitimately in your best interest to just start again. It will be so much less money, and so much less time for something that will be better than this will be after thousands of dollars and hours of labour.
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chrisd1891
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:17 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Use it as a parts bus.

That will be years of cutting, shaping, welding. There are months of work and thousands of dollars of repair cost in every picture you posted. Don't fall victim to the sunk cost fallacy.

I know because I made this mistake.

My project (which was a fraction of the work that would need to happen here) has taken longer than I expected and the end result is definitely sub-par (I didn't know how to do metal work before). I would have been better off cutting my losses and using my current bus for parts, and finding a decent shell to swap stuff in to.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

oh man, your pig has some bad lipstick. HOWEVER, if you want a driver, and not a showcar, you can have something drivable. That beam is toasty. Check your area for vw salvage. there is one by Frankenmuth Michigan that has excellent prices. you could hop in the truck (not the bus) and drive up and pick one up. The hard part would be taking off the bolts and what not on the beam there in the salvage yard. Maybe you could pay a few extra bucks and have them cut it off for you and deal with removing the attatchment bits it in your own driveway.
Another option is buy a roller in your area that has a good beam and some other good bits. maybe even better than your bus, and swap the engine into the new one. Motor-less basket cases can be had quite cheap. Now I think about it, that is prob the better option.
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:30 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

I would suggest one of these books, that cover rust repair.
Rust Repair
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:32 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

You have a Fuel Injected Type 4 engine.

Welcome to TheSamba, Bay Window Bus Forum!

73-79 NEWBIE

Tcash wrote:
Every Type IV engine owner should know this!!!

If you over tighten the Oil Strainer bolt, you will brake the engine case!
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There is a Oil strainer in there.
TORQUE THE STRAINER BOLT TO NO MORE THAN 9 FT. LBS.


Tcash wrote:
Here is a little information. Good Luck

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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

If you can not find a beam.. it can be repaired with some good metal work and skilled welder.. it wont fall off as it is.. but what it will do is move around and that is the unsafe part.. anything holding the wheels to the bus need to be addressed first.. worry about the other rust areas later.. get it safe to drive and then have fun with the rest
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PostPosted: Sun Sep 17, 2017 7:14 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Unfortunately I think what you will "Learn As You Go" in this situation is that you should have parted that sucker out from the get go, and found something more solid to work with...

Sure everything is fixable, but to what end? Its got lots of issues glaring at you in the face from just a quick glance, and it will only get worse as you go poking further into it. Find something better to invest your time and hard earned money in to. Cut bait now BEFORE you sink more time and money into it that you can't get back...

I'd bet you could get most of your current investment back by parting it (remember, every little piece is worth something). It will take time, but its doable. All that little hardware at $5-20 per bit adds up. Just start pulling it apart, save everything, take pictures, catalog stuff somewhere you can find it again, and post up ads here in the classifieds. Find comps to establish prices, or just put "make an offer". You'd be surprised. USPS flat rate is your friend for doing something like this... Free boxes, and easy to quote shipping prices...

Just my $0.02.. Don't mean to be a downer...
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:04 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

I'm normally pretty optimistic when it comes to trying to salvage a bus. And I'm impressed you have drive and desire to get this one safe and driving again.

Buuuuut... I'd have to side with my fellow nay-sayers. So much primary structure needs to be replaced. And secondary structure. And sheet metal. And the interior needs a lot of work. Just the dash is weeks of work by itself.

There have been posts on the Samba about rust buckets coming back from the dead, but usually occurrs in countries with very low wages and skilled craftsmen.

Cut your losses, Morphene. In two years, you'll be glad you did.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 6:20 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

KentPS wrote:
I'm normally pretty optimistic when it comes to trying to salvage a bus. And I'm impressed you have drive and desire to get this one safe and driving again.

Buuuuut... I'd have to side with my fellow nay-sayers. So much primary structure needs to be replaced. And secondary structure. And sheet metal. And the interior needs a lot of work. Just the dash is weeks of work by itself.

There have been posts on the Samba about rust buckets coming back from the dead, but usually occurrs in countries with very low wages and skilled craftsmen.

Cut your losses, Morphene. In two years, you'll be glad you did.


Agree with above^^


Even a guy who's an expert at metal replacement would shudder looking at this rusted out bus and the monstrous amounts of work it would require to cut it all off and replace it w/new metal.

As veterans of these old VW's and in many cases, people who've repaired rusted VW's, we could only hope you'd listen to our experiences and advice.

So, you've got $3500 invested in this fatal cancer bucket. Why not search for a rust free dry bus or shell in the dry southwest that needs everything but metal work done on it? Then, strip this salt covered rust bucket of all usable parts and put it on the rust free shell? Or, simply strip this bus of any good usable parts and sell them to recoup some of your $3500 while looking for a better candidate?

We've all seen so many threads on The Samba where someone purchased a very rusty bus like this one that spent it's life on snow and salt covered roads. I really can't think of any that were ever finished. The owner starts off strong but quickly realizes the scope of work involved and the high cost of decent replacement metal. Most are stripped and scrapped like this bus should be.
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morphene
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 7:09 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Thank you for your information and opinions guys (or gals, it's 2017, I don't judge).

So... the question it comes down to is this:

- Should I try to buy a shell and transfer stuff over or should I look at a complete bus (that is obviously not in a rusty condition)?

- I see some buses on the classifieds that are for sale for 4-7k, and they look rusty (but I am not sure if it's a patina like rust or if it's rusting through the metal).

How do I gauge what the condition is and what might be worth investing in?
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Your best bet is to have a Pre-buy inspection done by a mechanic that specializes in Buses. It is money well spent.
Good luck
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 9:35 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

morphene wrote:
Thank you for your information and opinions guys (or gals, it's 2017, I don't judge).

So... the question it comes down to is this:

- Should I try to buy a shell and transfer stuff over or should I look at a complete bus (that is obviously not in a rusty condition)?

- I see some buses on the classifieds that are for sale for 4-7k, and they look rusty (but I am not sure if it's a patina like rust or if it's rusting through the metal).

How do I gauge what the condition is and what might be worth investing in?


Agree with TCash. Find a rust free bus in S. California, Arizona, Nevada or Texas. Hire someone to do a full inspection of it. I know several people in the San Diego or LA area that do them.

Even if you have to pay $1500 to have this bus shipped back to you from out of state, it would save you thousands of dollars in not fixing a rust bucket.

Lastly, when you buy a rust bucket or basket case bus, it takes years to fix them back up so you can actually drive and enjoy them. Don't lose sight of that either.
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 18, 2017 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Frame rot and beam rot. Along with rockers being gone and just about every other part of the bus. The sliding door is now hinged, the roof is cut to install the sunroof. You do one of two things here:

1) Sell and try to get some money back, sell it with the running engine and tranny, You'll get a decent amount back just because of that.

2) Drive the crap out of it and ziptie fix it until it is in the ground. This could be done while properly fixing a bus/looking for a good deal on a solid bus.

I vote #2, get it mechanically sound and use it as something to learn all the systems of the bus on.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 5:09 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Thank you all for the feedback so far.

I am still thinking on what needs to be done and what my next steps are.

Here is what I am currently thinking:

- I am going to start saving up my money for a new, better conditioned bus but
- I am going to start tinkering with the bus I currently have.

- I will try to sell it in a while but for the moment, I think I might as well have fun trying to learn a couple of engine skills and if I fail trying, I can still part it out and get some of my "investment" back. And yes, I will try to not sink any more money into this.

Sound good?
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 7:30 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

I'm with Spike0180 here... I don't see why you couldn't use this as a "Learning Bus".

Sure the beam and frame are rotten.. But that doesn't mean you couldn't get it running/driving while you save money and look for another Bus. Running and Driving Busses are WAY more valuable than ones that are not, thats for damn sure..

The most important thing to me when looking at buying a Bus is most definitely Rust, especially Frame and Beam Rust. The nose of the bus being mangled is not a disqualifier, but I sure do keep it in mind. Wiring being a rats nest is the same way as the nose for me... not a disqualification, but I sure do keep that in mind.

Body Panels and Floor Panels can be replaced.
Engines and Transmissions can be sourced/replaced.

Frame Rot is a no-go for me.

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 8:43 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

morphene wrote:
Thank you all for the feedback so far.

I am still thinking on what needs to be done and what my next steps are.

Here is what I am currently thinking:

- I am going to start saving up my money for a new, better conditioned bus but
- I am going to start tinkering with the bus I currently have.

- I will try to sell it in a while but for the moment, I think I might as well have fun trying to learn a couple of engine skills and if I fail trying, I can still part it out and get some of my "investment" back. And yes, I will try to not sink any more money into this.

Sound good?

Get it running & make sure that the driveline is worthwhile, if it's good mechanically, then it's a good donor if you find a decent shell. It's better used as a donor vehicle for your next bus, unless you find someone that was as inexperienced as you, you'll lose your ass trying to sell this one.
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PostPosted: Tue Sep 19, 2017 9:26 am    Post subject: Re: 1978 Tin-Top - Restoration - Learn As We Go Reply with quote

Have someone who knows what they are looking at inspect that rusted beam. You don't need to cause an accident that could hurt you or others if the beam failed.

I've inspected enough rusted out cars back in the day to know this can happen and has happened. I also had people drive these cancer victims into the shop I worked out and then had them towed home or to the junk yard after we gave the car last rites after telling the owner it was unsafe to drive.
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