End play and paper or metal gasket?

[DougClink]

I have done a number of things to my motor with help from the good people of the Samba such as yourselves. I successfully un-stuck some rings and my engine is running actually quite good. Now the problem is endplay. I am concerned that I have too much endplay. I know that 3 to 5 thousands is preferred/recommended.

I am concerned that I have quite a bit more than that. I will borrow a dial indicator tomorrow to doublecheck. The question is what my 1970 1600 single port motor have had a paper or metal flywheel gasket? It seems that a metal gasket would take some of the slop out.

If I have too much, what are my options? A complete rebuild?
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1957 Sunroof Beetle • 1964 Beetle • 1958 Westfalia Subhatch • 1955 Baja Bus • 1970 Sportsmobile

[Tcash]

No gasket. Flywheel has o-ring to seal between the crank and flywheel.
Your choice is to pull the engine and inspect and reset your end play.
Good luck
Tcash

PS for an example a human hair is .003" to .004"

[DougClink]

Thanks for your reply tcash, fortunately I have the motor on a test stand. So all I have to do is get it on the floor. I did put the o'ring in the flywheel. I am talking about the gasket on the dowel pins. If I can't get the endplay right, doesn't the case need to be line board? Something else? I have a beetle case I can rebuild. I wonder how well the mustache bar adapter works.
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[SGKent]

what thicknesses are the three shims you are using and how much end play do you have. Normally you take the measurement with 2 shims then calculate the 3rd and measure again after all three are in.
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[vwjetboat]

when you pull the flywheel off.. push the crank back and forth from the crank pulley end.. look at the thrust bearing were it sits in back of case.. is it moving back and forth with crank?

[Tcash]

I am talking about the gasket on the dowel pins.
I know. If you have and oring flywheel you do not use a gasket on the dowel pins.
Besides adding a gasket would add to your end play not make it less.
As posted, see if the bearing is loose in the case.
Inspect the end of the bearing, there should be spooned reliefs for the oil to get to the shims. If they are gone, the bearing is gone.
Loose bearing

Link


setting end play
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XYS2jng1gNc

Good luck
Tcash

[Busstom]

Yes, like Tcash said, a metal gasket over the pins would increase your end play, making it worse...don't do that.

As was suggested, before putting effort into the end play, first determine if the thrust bearing (#1 main) is shuffling fore and aft in the case. The way to do this is, use that same dial indicator you'd be using to check the end play; set it up so that you're indicating off the flange of the main bearing (all shims removed, looking at the spooned notches that Tcash describes); take a thin block of wood, and tap the main bearing towards the pulley-end of the case, tapping firmly but carefully around the perimeter of the bearing flange (don't hit your indicator!). Then, without touching anything else on the engine, zero your dial face, then take a mallet and slap the crank pulley bolt on the other end of the engine. This will give it a good shove, and if the thrust cut (the #1 main bearing saddle/shoulders) is going bad, you'll see the needle move/change on your dial indicator. There shouldn't be ANY movement in a perfect scenario.

Here's a pic of me doing the exact same job on a type 1 engine.

[Wildthings]

Your excessive end play is probably caused by the thrust bearing moving around in the case. This can not be corrected by reshimming. If you try to do so you will lock the bearing to the flywheel-crank assembly and will likely destroy your engine in very short order as a result. You will just need to tolerate the excessive endplay until rebuild time.

[DougClink]

Thanks everyone, I will check that out tonight.
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[Busstom]

[DougClink]

I am thinking this is pretty bad. What are my options? Note, this is without any shims. I have a beetle case I could build over the winter, keeping the old engine together so I can't back it in and out of the garage, put it on the lift, etc. not to run more than a few minutes. I know that if you want to use the beetle engine/case, you must have an adapter. Some on the formum have said this is not optimal.

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[Tcash]

[airschooled]

All that mumbling about with a dial indicator on a bearing seems funky to me. There are other ways to ensure the bearing is not moving. I'm too lazy to retype it, so here is what I said to the last guy:

http://itinerant-air-cooled.com/viewtopic.php?f=46&t=12721&p=216430

Robbie
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[Busstom]

It's not about seeing IF the thrust bearing is moving: it's about how MUCH, and if you're gonna roll it as is till the next rebuild, and knowing how much end play is thrust, and how much is flywheel shimming, so that we can set proper flywheel spacing from the thrust bearing.
For the OP, I'd consider 0.033" a finished case...time to tear down.
In my case, 0.003 movement isn't worth me tearing down a POS 1600, that's going in the trash pretty soon. But I still want to put it back together so it's mobile until I can get around to building its replacement. It's pretty hard to set decent end play if the thrust movement is mucking up the numbers.

0.033 is too much, that plus the flywheel setting, and pretty soon the flywheel is damn near leaving the seal and letting oil out, at some point anyway.

(Edited to fix all my damn typos.)

[DougClink]

Thank you all again for your import. I was trying to do what busstom said to do from memory.
The second picture is from the second attempt of shroving the crankshaft towards the rear of the engine, i.e. rear of the car, and then hitting the pulley bolt with a rubber mallet. So it looks like there’s an awful lot of movement. Do they make a bearing that can take up the space and save the case? I did look at the video provided that shows a shim, but it appears you would have to send your engine to California to have that done.
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[Busstom]

Yes, they make thrust bearings with oversize, thicker shoulders (flanges), but you must have the case machined to match it.

By the way, Doug, sorry, I didn't read your post clearly. If you're putting it back together for temporary motation, it's probably gonna move you around the driveway and stuff alright. But keep in mind, that fore-aft movement of your crank is inducing a heavy lateral load on your connecting rods and piston pins, basically putting a bending moment on the rods and cocking the pistons in the cylinders every time you push the clutch in. Back in my stupid years, I ran one to the Pleasanton Bug Bash with sloppy end play, and spun the rod bearings on two rods...seized me up on the freeway. So just beware of the risks.

[Just us buses]

Just for the record, if you've not removed the oil seal, your shims are still in there. They go between the flywheel and bearing, around the crank.
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[airschooled]

I'd like to interrupt this thread to remind everyone that end play MUST be measured with the flywheel ON. There is no way to do it otherwise.

Robbie
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[Busstom]

[airschooled]