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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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 Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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One of the biggest reasons for this thread revolves around fire safety. Why would anyone use the wrong size hose? I have already given a link for great quality Honda fuel line.
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SlowLane
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Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1044
Location: Livermore, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 5:42 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| One of the biggest reasons for this thread revolves around fire safety. Why would anyone use the wrong size hose? I have already given a link for great quality Honda fuel line. |
You asked for a link to metric nylon line. I provided one. Sorry if it doesn't meet your requirements.
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Present:
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Back in the day:
'72 Super Beetle
'69 Camper Van - Corvair powered
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aeromech
Samba Member
Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| SlowLane wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| One of the biggest reasons for this thread revolves around fire safety. Why would anyone use the wrong size hose? I have already given a link for great quality Honda fuel line. |
You asked for a link to metric nylon line. I provided one. Sorry if it doesn't meet your requirements. |
I asked Ray for a link because he said nylon line was available in metric sizes. I didn’t see him post a link to nylon 5.5mm line. Did I miss it?
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
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SlowLane
Samba Member
Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1044
Location: Livermore, CA
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| SlowLane wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| One of the biggest reasons for this thread revolves around fire safety. Why would anyone use the wrong size hose? I have already given a link for great quality Honda fuel line. |
You asked for a link to metric nylon line. I provided one. Sorry if it doesn't meet your requirements. |
I asked Ray for a link because he said nylon line was available in metric sizes. I didn’t see him post a link to nylon 5.5mm line. Did I miss it? |
To the best of my knowledge, the metric nylon line comes in increments of even-numbered mm (eg. 4, 6, 8, 10 mm), though perhaps at the smaller diameters it comes in odd mm sizes (1, 3 mm). No 5.5 mm, sorry.
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Present:
'81 Westfalia: 2L, manual. Originally Canadian, now Californiated
Back in the day:
'72 Super Beetle
'69 Camper Van - Corvair powered
'71 Window Van - Transferred Corvair from '69
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." - Internet RFC 1925
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." - Sir Terry Pratchett |
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aeromech
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Joined: January 24, 2006
Posts: 16971
Location: San Diego, California
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 6:40 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Thanks for being honest about that. I’d really love to find good quality fuel line in the correct 5.5mm size. The best I found was the Honda which is rated for 15% methanol. It’s great stuff and the correct size for carved engines. Why wouldn’t a person trust Honda?
_________________
Lead Mechanic: San Diego Air and Space Museum
Licensed Airframe and Powerplant Mechanic
Licensed Pilot (Single engine Land)
Boeing 727,737-200-300-400,757,767
Airbus A319,320,321
DC9/MD80
BAe146
Fokker F28/F100
VW type 1 1962,63,65,69,72
VW Type 2 1971 (3 ea.) 1978, 1969
VW Jetta
VW Passat
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Tue May 22, 2018 10:24 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Sorry......busy day. I will dig through my nylon line stuff. It may come in only even numbers....but it depends on who you are buying from. There are many manutacturers of nylon fuel line.
Also....wondering why you would worry about half sizes. The variations in ID work within the wall thicknesses for uniform IDs. Also.....its about the fittings as well.
The fire issue on normal cars....is no more or less of a worry than rubber lines and probably less.....as the nylon lines actually have a better record with less leakage over the long haul than rubber does.
Otherwise....use metal.
Earlier today I spent q little time with a list of fittings for conversion. In reality.....you do not even have to use the factory "squeeze clip" connectors....or barbed fittings..... unless you want to.
The OEMs use the clips on fittings in exposed areas because the have a higher PULL strength to keep from seperating if the line gets snagged. In reality.....you can get equal or higher pressure clamping ratings by using stainless steel push lock fittings with fuel and oil rated o-rings. I will post some links in the am.
Ray |
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SlowLane
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Joined: July 11, 2005
Posts: 1044
Location: Livermore, CA
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 7:16 am Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| aeromech wrote: |
| I’d really love to find good quality fuel line in the correct 5.5mm size. The best I found was the Honda which is rated for 15% methanol. |
Sorry, digressing from the topic of nylon line for the moment...
If you're looking for good 5.5 mm rubber hose (which it appears that your Honda stuff is) then there are a couple of other options, both available from Bel-Metric, albeit a little pricier than your Honda hose. A bit of Googling should turn up some more reasonable prices, though.
The Cohline 2240.0400 is a high-quality F.I.-rated aramid-reinforced rubber hose in the 5.5 mm size. Cohline's 2240 line is a low-permeation hose rated for bio-diesel and also E10 fuel.
The Flennor multi-fuel rubber hose is only available in whole mm, but is E85-approved. It's also available with a braided covering if you want the original VW hose look, but again, 5 mm is the closest size to your desired 5.5 mm.
I have a couple of feet of both the Cohline 5.5 mm and the non-braided Flennor 5 mm left over from my fuel tank refresh. PM me if you would like a sample of either or both of them.
_________________
Present:
'81 Westfalia: 2L, manual. Originally Canadian, now Californiated
Back in the day:
'72 Super Beetle
'69 Camper Van - Corvair powered
'71 Window Van - Transferred Corvair from '69
"With sufficient thrust, pigs fly just fine." - Internet RFC 1925
"They say a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, but it is not one half so bad as a lot of ignorance." - Sir Terry Pratchett
Last edited by SlowLane on Wed May 23, 2018 6:54 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:02 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| SlowLane wrote: |
| aeromech wrote: |
| I’d really love to find good quality fuel line in the correct 5.5mm size. The best I found was the Honda which is rated for 15% methanol. |
Sorry, diverging from the topic of nylon line for the moment...
If you're looking for good 5.5 mm rubber hose (which it appears that your Honda stuff is) then there are a couple of other options, both available from Bel-Metric, albeit a little pricier than your Honda hose. A bit of Googling should turn up some more reasonable prices, though.
The Cohline 2240.0400 is a high-quality F.I.-rated hose in the 5.5 mm size. Cohline's 2240 line is a low-permeation hose rated for bio-diesel and also E10 fuel.
The Flennor multi-fuel hose is only available in whole mm, but is E85-approved. It's also available with a braided covering if you want the original VW hose look, but again, 5 mm is the closest size to your desired 5.5 mm.
I have a couple of feet of both the Cohline 5.5 mm and the Flennor smooth 5 mm left over from my fuel tank refresh. PM me if you would like a sample of either or both of them. |
I love that marketing call out...."E-85 rated"....  
.........all of the fuel rated Nylon hoses....are good for E-10, E-15, E-85.....E-anything, diesel, bio-diesel, brake fluid, waste oil transmission.....but not coolant, transmission fluid or hot oil.
And....fuel vapor permeation?.....Nylon has almost...almost.... "0" fuel vapor permeation. Far lower than any rubber hose laminate. And if you need to have 0....Dayco...for starters...patented a Nylon extruded fuel line back in 2003 with a thin layer of aluminum foil built into it that has "0" vapor permeability.
Its not that the Nylon will melt with hot oil...as the melt temps for Nylon 11 and 12 are about 375 F....its just the potential that the hot oils get into a hot enough range 300-ish for coolant and 250-ish for oil and trans fluid... that continued expansion cycles may weaken the swaged joints.
But the seals will not leak as they are Viton or HBNR.
By the way...from digging through my notes...you are "largely" correct...that the metric lines only come in whole number diameters.
I say largely...because what my brain was referencing was two items:
1. Though the metric lines are available only in whole # OD...they are available in fractional ID through various manufacturers due to variations in wall section.
This wall section variation is VERY useful in many ways....you get thinner walls with better bend radius. You get thicker walls with higher burst strength, get get walls of differing thickness for use with different connector systems.
You see the same variations in SAE sizes with regard to wall thickness and ID thickness of nylon tubing.
2. I have notes from a very few "rarified" company's I have met at industry trade shows that can and do produce fractional sized OD's of metric or standard lines...or even custom decimal sizes. They are expensive....actually still less than fluorelastomer hose....but you must order a minimum of 100' and they will them custom extrude whatever you want.
Let me verify a few things and I will post some links at some point.
But really....as long as ID size of your Nylon lines are sized to flow what you need on the system ...there is not really any need to care about the OD size....or even the ID size for that matter.
In the case of converting one of our cars from rubber hose to nylon lines....your existing component end sizes are irrelevant...because you are going to convert items like the gas tank inlet and outlet for EFI....to male quick connect fitting with a permanent pressure union. The Nylon line can be larger than than the ID of your tank or pump connection...just never smaller.
The fuel pump....stock with a nipple you can do the same with a pressure union. After market pumps like a huge range of Bosch and the Airtex E-2000....can be bought anywhere with either an inlet nipple or a screw-in male or female fitting and you can simply screw in a male or female quick connect for nylon.
The ends of existing through-the-tunnel fuel lines, same thing...pressure union with quick connect male. The ends of the existing steel injector ring mains that injectors connect to...same thing....pressure union with male quick connect.
The fuel pressure regulator can be converted to male quick connects with pressure unions or you can leave them hose nipples.
Really the only places in your system where you would still actually need to have rubber...because its just not as simple to convert those parts....is connecting the injectors to the ring main, connecting the CSV to the ring main and connecting the FPR to the ring main if you do not want to use unions.
This means the connections in the Nylon system conversion are dead easy...except connecting the readily available female fittings to the Nylon lines. There are actually a handful of ways to do this. It getting easier every day.
Since this thread is on the subject of Nylon fuel lines....and we are therefore not getting off-subject......lets expand a little. Some things to remember:
1. With regard to fire safety....when comparing rubber hoses with nylon....there are three factors to worry about.
A. Is the Nylon line versus rubber hose more prone to connection point leakage where it will cause a fire?
Answer:....only in high heat cycling areas like inside the engine compartment which is why its not used there. In cases of modern cars using Nylons and quick disconnects for some heater and radiator connections inside the engine compartment....thats a different nylon plastic alloy and have totally different quick disconnect designs.
B. Is the Nylon tube versus rubber hoses more prone to burn through/melt in an accident or in contact with a heat source like a manifold?
Answer: No. In areas outside the engine compartment where high heat...over 225F...is not expected...unless a hose or tube comes loose from a clamp and swings up against the manifold....the Nylon is not enough lower in melt through point than fluorelastomer rubber.
For instance....the gates Barricade hose is only rated to 302* F intermittent. The Nylon is actually rated higher than that with a MELT point of about 375-410 F.
The difference is that the rubber hose can handle 275* F max continuous long term use where the Nylon can only handle about 170*F.
The worry with Nylon is not melting. Its expansion. With cycling....that can loosen swaged connections over time. You CAN negate that by clamping the connections just like rubber hoses.
Nylon 11 and 12 have a HEAT DISTORTION point of 302*F. So if you are using a Nylon fuel line and it is PASSING THROUGH the engine compartment and has no connector fittings inside of that hot area....you will have no problem using it for this
C. Is Nylon versus rubber hoses more prone to structural failure causing a leak and fuel loss?
Answer: No. Nylon has continually beat the pants off of multi-layer, reinforced fuel hose in this respect. There are no lamination layers to split and travel between teh layers to cause bulging or sweating...due to improper clamping or external damage.
The gist is that with Nylon....just like Teflon stainless brake hoses....you can damage Nylon fuel tube by poor planning....letting it hang out to get caught on things or trying to go around too sharp a bend and repeatedly kinking it.
By the way....you can easily make nice custom heat-bent nylon tubes at home.
I will get into that later. Ray |
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SGKent 
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:11 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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I tried to follow you but my eyes got tired. I give - you can write more words than my brain and eyes can follow. 
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Abscate
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Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 22670
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Just never spool nylon hose in a reel - you will get your nylons in a knot, otherwise.
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udidwht
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Joined: March 06, 2005
Posts: 3779
Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Wed May 23, 2018 9:09 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
The barbed fittings.....are only lightly heated. The big deal is that where barbs are actually used....they are typically heated to maybe 200° F.....and "pressed" in with a ratchet style tool.
Using barbed fittings is only really necessary in certain areas where getting to the joint is not an easy access.....meaning connections inside the car body, inside the fuel tank etc.
Otherwise....for instance.....in that picture of the fuel filter that Dogo posted......you can get those same fittings....with female quick connects.....on both ends.
This changes things a bit. ...but your brain first starts thinking....."but the male fuel line still needs a flange for the female quick connect to latch onto".....right?
Yes.......and those can be installed with barbs. But unlike the plastic barbs you see in Dogo's picture....the barbed, flanged connectors do not have to have HUGE ridges on the barbs like those plastic ones. Metal ones do not compress at all. All it needs is a bump....and you CAN clamp them.
You can even insert fittings with a dead smooth fit and slight corrugations...heat to about 225° F with a heat gun....and simply crimp the outside.
There are also double ended female line connectors that use a slightly different clip system and use the same internal o-rings to seal. They are similar to air line connectors. They are leak free to over 150 psi.
Nylon is a great solution for everywhere but inside the engine compartment. You find ambient temp range listed right at 212° constant. Not because it will melt....the melt point of Nylon 11 is between 430° and 500°F......but because it starts fo expand enough that at highest rated pressure.....it may leak at the fittings.
So in our cars..... long run sections with no fittings.... passing through the area forward of the engine compartment to the gas tank....or even farther forward to those of use with types 1, 3 and 4 cars with front mounted fuel tanks.....even getting radiant heat upwards to 250° + from brakes and transmission.....is not a problem.
But the OEMs for the most part try to keep nylon out of the engine compartment where it can get close to manifolds. So for instance....with a watercooled car that has a transverse motor and the exhaust manifold exits at the rear next to the firewall....like my Golf.....the nylon line dead ends at the firewall at a pressure flange and has a short rubber flex joint line with swaged fittings. It connects to short clamped down formed metal lines....and then clamps to the fuel rail.....which is a molded glass filled polyphenylene thermoplastic.
This method is actually not horribly far from what VW did in our cars with D and L-jet. They just take it a little farther.
A modern variant in our cars if they were still in production.....would be nylon from the tank to pump, from pump to engine compartment....ending at a quick disconnect bulkhead fitting on the sheet metal, a high quality, swaged rubber flex joint....probably with outer braiding.....to a push fit connector on the metal fuel rail for #1 and 2 that we already have.
Then another rubber connector hose to a bent steel line that say....runs along the #2 injection runner.....or you can make it all one piece all the way up to the CSV.....which would either use threaded fittings or another pair of short clamped rubber parts.....joining to another formed line that goes to 3 and 4.....and a short clamped flex line to the regulator.....which connects on the forward side of the bulkhead to push fit nylon back to the fuel tank return.
While I agree with Hoody that the Gates barricade is a pretty good solution.....I am not convinced its a perfect solution. There have been some hit and miss problems with this hose. Hard to say if its materials or build quality...or even installation issues.
The other issue is cost.
For a long time....even back in the early to mid 90s....on D-jet cars....it was recommended to change your fuel lines out about every three years. Not because they failed....but because even back then in hot climates....they start hardening up. Back then at $1.75-ish a foot.....it just was not a big deal spending $45 on a 30' line change.
Now a full change out every 3-4 years.....will cost 2.5X. Thats getting prohibitive. I can see why the OEMs have gone to non high heat areas of all nylon lines ....at about 25 cents a foot or less and no issues with any fuel.
They are fighting in legislation to behin introducing E-15 this summer ....stupid.
Ray |
The E15 won't pass. Too many vehicles on the road that aren't compatible with it. My 2003 Highlander isn't compatible with it. It's backwards thinking given it's already been proven that anything more than ~3-5 percent does nothing beneficial to the environment. It also increases fuel consumption.
I'm predicting that this administration will ultimately scrap the ethanol requirement all together. Why? Because new cars today are far more cleaner burning than even 10 years ago even without the ethanol. Going back to regular gas would allow cars to increase MPG's overall.
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1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Man I hope you are right about the E-15. Its a waste.
Its big talking point issue here in Iowa. And yes....you are correct. Far too many vehicles just here in Iowa....being that we have no state emissions or safety inspections.....  ....wji2ch may be great for well cared for classic cars....but is really a haven for late 80s to 90s rusting, smoking wrecks.....but I digress......they will have a ton of problems here.
And....oddly......just about the only thing that will have 0 problems with E-15....are the nylon fuel lines!
Ray |
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SGKent
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Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 9:32 am Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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my take is that it will depend on what the corn lobby puts together. A good friend with access to the research indicated that when the ethanol thing got going last time the recent increase in unrest in the Middle East came from that. He said that many of the 3rd world cultures were relying on cheap grains including corn to sustain things, and when we started diverting a huge amount of corn to ethanol the increase in grain prices pushed a lot of the 3rd world into hunger. It is unknown whether we will place cheap grains for 3rd world food as a priority again or force ethanol for clean air. We personally get better mileage when using non-ethanol fuels. What is not mentioned is that there does not appear to be a finite standard for the amount of water mixed in with the ethanol. If water is mixed in, the ethanol absorbs it and holds it in suspension until a saturation point is reached where it comes out of suspension. So, someone can add a limited amount of water to ethanol fuels and that drops the MPG far worse than ethanol fuel by itself. But someone selling 1500 gallons of fuel can increase their profits significantly with selling water instead of fuel.
Gates Barricade is also approved for Ethanol fuels including the 15% ethanol fuel. I don't know if our FPR will handle that but I would think the steels in the tank, rails, and injectors would. Don't know about the plastic in the CSV either. They are NLA and already brittle with age unless fairly new. Carbed vehicles are a problem too because many of those parts can be affected by alcohol. I am having to rebuild the lawn equipment carbs and fuel pumps every year or two now - and those used to last 10 years between problems.
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Wildthings
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Joined: March 13, 2005
Posts: 50352
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 10:54 am Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| SGKent wrote: |
my take is that it will depend on what the corn lobby puts together. A good friend with access to the research indicated that when the ethanol thing got going last time the recent increase in unrest in the Middle East came from that. He said that many of the 3rd world cultures were relying on cheap grains including corn to sustain things, and when we started diverting a huge amount of corn to ethanol the increase in grain prices pushed a lot of the 3rd world into hunger. It is unknown whether we will place cheap grains for 3rd world food as a priority again or force ethanol for clean air. We personally get better mileage when using non-ethanol fuels. What is not mentioned is that there does not appear to be a finite standard for the amount of water mixed in with the ethanol. If water is mixed in, the ethanol absorbs it and holds it in suspension until a saturation point is reached where it comes out of suspension. So, someone can add a limited amount of water to ethanol fuels and that drops the MPG far worse than ethanol fuel by itself. But someone selling 1500 gallons of fuel can increase their profits significantly with selling water instead of fuel.
Gates Barricade is also approved for Ethanol fuels including the 15% ethanol fuel. I don't know if our FPR will handle that but I would think the steels in the tank, rails, and injectors would. Don't know about the plastic in the CSV either. They are NLA and already brittle with age unless fairly new. Carbed vehicles are a problem too because many of those parts can be affected by alcohol. I am having to rebuild the lawn equipment carbs and fuel pumps every year or two now - and those used to last 10 years between problems. |
The corn lobby will unfortunately likely keep Trump from getting rid of ethanol laced fuels. We get letters to the editor in our paper every spring trying to get us to support more ethanol in our fuels, these are brazenly put forth by the corn lobby. For what its worth, the government did recently outlaw the use of antibiotics as food supplements to get feedlot cattle to gain weight faster. Antibiotices are still legal to keep feedlot cattle healthy though, so I doubt that their use has diminished much, as corn is essentially poisonous to cattle and without antibiotics the whole feedlot system may well fail. Maybe this will begin the winding down of feedlots though, I sure wouldn't want to live near one and use well water for drinking, I have seen kids that grew up near feedlots and they look like Brahma bulls from ingesting all the growth harmones through their water.
Last edited by Wildthings on Thu May 24, 2018 1:51 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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udidwht
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Location: Seattle, WA./ HB, Ca./ Shizuoka, Japan
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| raygreenwood wrote: |
Man I hope you are right about the E-15. Its a waste.
Its big talking point issue here in Iowa. And yes....you are correct. Far too many vehicles just here in Iowa....being that we have no state emissions or safety inspections..... ....wji2ch may be great for well cared for classic cars....but is really a haven for late 80s to 90s rusting, smoking wrecks.....but I digress......they will have a ton of problems here.
And....oddly......just about the only thing that will have 0 problems with E-15....are the nylon fuel lines!
Ray |
I know that many older Japanese cars (5yrs+ or so) are not designed to run the E-15 fuel. It isn't due to the fuel lines used it is the engine itself. They just aren't designed for it. Going to E-15 would create a nightmare situation for many folks.
_________________
1972 Westy Hardtop/Type-4 2056cc
96mm Biral AA P/C's~7.8:1CR
Headflow Masters New AMC 42x36mm heads w/Porsche swivel adjusters
71mm Stroke
73 Web Cam w/Web solids
Dual 40mm IDF Webers - LM-2 - 47.5 idles/125 mains/190 air corr./F11 tubes/28mm Vents - Float height 10.45mm/Drop 32mm
Bosch SVDA w/Pertronix module (7.5 initial 28 total @ 3400rpm)
Bosch W8CC plugs
Pertronix Flamethrower 40K coil
S&S 4-1 w/Walker QP 17862
3 rib 002 Trans
185R14 Hankook tires |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 1:30 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| udidwht wrote: |
| raygreenwood wrote: |
Man I hope you are right about the E-15. Its a waste.
Its big talking point issue here in Iowa. And yes....you are correct. Far too many vehicles just here in Iowa....being that we have no state emissions or safety inspections..... ....wji2ch may be great for well cared for classic cars....but is really a haven for late 80s to 90s rusting, smoking wrecks.....but I digress......they will have a ton of problems here.
And....oddly......just about the only thing that will have 0 problems with E-15....are the nylon fuel lines!
Ray |
I know that many older Japanese cars (5yrs+ or so) are not designed to run the E-15 fuel. It isn't due to the fuel lines used it is the engine itself. They just aren't designed for it. Going to E-15 would create a nightmare situation for many folks. |
yep...thats what I was getting at. The fuel lines (now that teh vast majority are nylon/steel)...are not the issue. Its everything from the injection, compression to software.
Its going to be stupid to watch. I agree with Wildthings....if Trump cannot get this thing squashed...it will be because of the corn lobby. Ray |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 2:42 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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Ray I have a question for your wisdom and chemical knowledge. My understanding is that alcohol fuels carry a couple extra oxygen molecules, and less carbon so they are able to burn leaner than full hydro-carbons. I know from racing that alcohols will withstand much greater compression ratios than full hydro-carbons, and they will also burn in an environment so rich that a gasoline engine will flood. High end drag racers use all that to their advantage by pouring an extremely high compression engine with extra alcohol to cool it - something they could not due with gasoline. Likewise the folks in Brazil have been using fuels that are around 20% ethanol since the world bankers cut them off from money for world oil many years ago. I thought that the corrosion and interaction with alcohol was the real issue but the comments here indicate things like compression are more a concern. Any thought.
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“Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:34 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| SGKent wrote: |
| Ray I have a question for your wisdom and chemical knowledge. My understanding is that alcohol fuels carry a couple extra oxygen molecules, and less carbon so they are able to burn leaner than full hydro-carbons. I know from racing that alcohols will withstand much greater compression ratios than full hydro-carbons, and they will also burn in an environment so rich that a gasoline engine will flood. High end drag racers use all that to their advantage by pouring an extremely high compression engine with extra alcohol to cool it - something they could not due with gasoline. Likewise the folks in Brazil have been using fuels that are around 20% ethanol since the world bankers cut them off from money for world oil many years ago. I thought that the corrosion and interaction with alcohol was the real issue but the comments here indicate things like compression are more a concern. Any thought. |
Oh ethanol fuels....are actually excellent.
They have a couple of headaches that can be gotten around fairly easily.....but your combustion cycle and pistons must be designed for it.
The BTU per lb is lower.....by about 18%....so yes....you need higher compression to get the same amount of power....and you will need to use a little more fuel.
The issue is that between higher compression....which is higher specific heat at the piston....still not a problem by itself.....but the alcohol causes a rapid cooling effect. Natural gas engines can have the same issue. Between higher piston crown temps and rapid cooling you can commonly get piston crown micro fractures which causes erosion.
There are also some fuel loop corrosion issues. The other issue is that because of different specific gravity....modern gas gauges in cars designed for E-10 maximum.....will be waaaay out of whack.
The E85 systems have a dual probe with a self diagnostic that switches over. Not cheap....but works well.
Again.....if the engine and the fuel system is designed around high alcohol content useage....its no problem.
The issue with ethanol in the US is two fold:
1. Our "ready, fire aim" method of upping the ethanol content does not take current engine and fuel system configurations of tens of millions of cars on the road into account. The more intelligent method of introduction is to propose a target date down the line and start shifting all the engine and fuel system design over to multi-fuel technology....so the two points largely coincide.
2. Our method of producing ethanol....primarily from corn....is absolutely stupid.....and fully tax subsidized.
What corn ethanol does not capture in the cost per gallon (and is therefore subsidized):
1. The cost of "pumped" irrigation for water to grow the corn. It adds about 3%
2. The cost of heat/ fuel for distillation. It adds about 3-5%
3. The very high cost of transport....as ethanol cannot be pumped through pipelines in raw form....or from mixing point to regional tank farms. The ethanol ALL goes by rail to railhead...then split to trucks to go to regional mixing/distribution farms. This adds about 7-10%.
The reason why it cannot be pipelined like straight gasoline.....is because
A. It is a decent oxygenator.....not as good as the MTBE it replaced...but good. Its too corrosive for the pipelines.
B. Its hygroscopic. Even the tiniest leak would destroy the water table wherever it happens.
4. The cost of disposal of the millions of pounds of waste produced by the mash. The myth that its absorbed as cattle feed is largely false. The entire livestock industry... which has shrunk.....could only absorb 40% of this waste product as of late 2015. The rest is land filled. Adds about 2-3% depending on location.
5. The corn in most places that make the most corn ethanol....and Iowa is #2......require that the corn is siloed and dried before shipping by rail to the distillation plant. In about 70% of places....that requires propane or natural gas. In 2014....the corn industry in the Midwest alone experienced a wet summer.
This caused a NATIONAL shortage of propane for 5 months just to get the corn crop in.....about 70% of which was corn for ethanol. That can add 5% depending on the going propane price per pound.
6. The cost of transporting corn from the field to the distillation plant costs about an extra 3-4% depending on rail rates and diesel costs.
7. The cost of nitrogen based fertilizer varies due to the price of natural gas. Corn is 2nd behind cotton in the requirement of both water and nitrates. Corn uses a VAST amount of fertilizer. Only a portion of that is captured. It adds about 2%.
There are a few more secondary things not captured at all. The E-10 alone produces an almost across the board 3% reduction in fuel mileage on modern, self adjusting fuel injected cars.
And....another for instance.....just here in Des Moines.....due to the Nitrate and glypho-phosphate pesticide runoff primarily from the corn ethanol industry.....in order to get our drinking water to pass even the worst federal drinking water specs......starting every june.....our water works has to turn on a secondary RO and UV system that adds $125,000 PER DAY.....to Des Moines water cost.
So.....our "method" of producing ethanol in the US at this time.. adds a MINIMUM of 20% and a maximum of 32% to the cost of each gallon of ethanol. Ethanol based gasoline is MUCH more expensive than straight gasoline. You just do not see it because its SUBSIDIZED.
Every bIt of that is TAXPAYER subsidized. Its un-sustainable.
Ethanol is not bad.....our method of producing it and using it is.
Add to that.....it was factually found....world wide.....in the late 90s that the ideal ethanol percentage to reduce NOX....is 3% maximum. You can keep that benefit.....by adding a mzximum of 5%......but that increased the HC output in 80s and 90s vehicles not designed for it.
The addition of 10%.....actually reversed the benefit of NOX reduction....and the only reason the HC production is not even worse was due to the fuel system and engine changes in thre OBD-2 era.
After the 10 year, E-10 NOX reduction pilot plan......FAILED......to reduce NOX in any of the test reasins......the ethanol lobby skillfully and succesfully was able to change the media narrative......of ethanol being needed for AIR QUALITY......to ethanol being needed to reduce dependance on foreign and fossil fuels....and reduce costs.
None of which does "CORN" ethanol do.
Ray |
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SGKent
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Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 41031
Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 3:47 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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so Ray - that was a small amount of technical and a whole lot of political. I am looking for specific issues that will come up on our buses. Example - the fuel line is going to be a problem if someone has the older 30R7 fuel line. If someone has nylon or Gates Barricade, etc., than that should be Ok. You pointed out the inaccuracy of the fuel gauges. Will the varnishes on the windings etc., hold up? What about the diaphragm in the FPR? Fuel filter components, plastics in the fuel pumps, diaphragms in the pumps for carbed cars etc.
BTW - older cars are expendable based on what I have heard from smog folks. There aren't enough of us to spend their time on. I have to run so I'll make this quick. When the buses started spilling gas with the new nozzles I spoke with the people behind that. They said have the station staff show you how to fill. I asked - if they spill too? "Then they can't legally sell you gasoline and you will have to park the car. You should see how bad the guys with the license plate fillers have it."
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raygreenwood
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Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21520
Location: Oklahoma City
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| Posted: Thu May 24, 2018 5:49 pm Post subject: Re: Nylon fuel line |
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| SGKent wrote: |
so Ray - that was a small amount of technical and a whole lot of political. I am looking for specific issues that will come up on our buses. Example - the fuel line is going to be a problem if someone has the older 30R7 fuel line. If someone has nylon or Gates Barricade, etc., than that should be Ok. You pointed out the inaccuracy of the fuel gauges. Will the varnishes on the windings etc., hold up? What about the diaphragm in the FPR? Fuel filter components, plastics in the fuel pumps, diaphragms in the pumps for carbed cars etc.
BTW - older cars are expendable based on what I have heard from smog folks. There aren't enough of us to spend their time on. I have to run so I'll make this quick. When the buses started spilling gas with the new nozzles I spoke with the people behind that. They said have the station staff show you how to fill. I asked - if they spill too? "Then they can't legally sell you gasoline and you will have to park the car. You should see how bad the guys with the license plate fillers have it." |
actually 100% of that was technical...documented and verifiable. The only people 2ho consider the true facts behind corn ethanol costs ...."political" ....either those that in the environmental lobby and consider anything that is against their 2nd favorite "green" fuel....and its not green....or are part of the corn ethanol supply chain or lobby......both will consider those facts...."political"....but have no answer for them.
But I get your drift....  ....how does it affect bus or aircooled engines.
Old injectors and FPRs already have trouble with E-10. FPR diaphragms, fuel lines and anything in the fuel system of older design have issues with the ethanol. More precisely....they have issues with ethanol and water.
The older platings on fuel gauge senders are not made for the combined high ethanol and water. You can already see issues with E-10.
The current injectors have no issue with E-10 itself....and probably will not have an issue with E-15.....but in non daily driven vehicles.....the water content will take its toll on older style injectors. They do not have the platings that E85 and most thoroughly new injectors have.....which is primarily zinc-nickle....very expensive except at OEM quantity.
Our FPRs and older fuel pumps have the same issues.
Virtually all new build for modern car injectors, FPRs, pump cavities and rotors....and all quality small engine carburetors.....make use of extensive zinc-nickel electroless plating.
The bigger issue....will be plastisols and plastics in fuel filters and strainers. They are an unkjown with E-15. Ray |
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