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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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 Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:32 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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Subaru AWD transmissions all come equipped with a center differential. It's an integral part of the Subaru AWD system.
All of your questions are good ones. There are a lot of ins and outs to a conversion like what you're considering. I'm glad to answer any other questions you might have.
Cheers,
Dave |
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Wed Sep 27, 2017 8:12 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| D Clymer wrote: |
Subaru AWD transmissions all come equipped with a center differential. It's an integral part of the Subaru AWD system.
All of your questions are good ones. There are a lot of ins and outs to a conversion like what you're considering. I'm glad to answer any other questions you might have.
Cheers,
Dave |
awesome. thanks Dave. so I think I'll go with a non locking vw front diff with an LSD. the transmission will be from a turbo (i believe these have a lower first gear) and will also have a pelequin. this should effectively mimic a suby awd.
sound good?!
I'm super stoked!!
_________________
84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp |
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 11:32 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| human compass wrote: |
awesome. thanks Dave. so I think I'll go with a non locking vw front diff with an LSD. the transmission will be from a turbo (i believe these have a lower first gear) and will also have a pelequin. this should effectively mimic a suby awd.
sound good?!
I'm super stoked!! |
I think I would just use a standard Syncro front differential with no TBD fitted and save the $1200 plus installation cost. If you have a TBD in the rear, and the Subaru center diff with its viscous locking function, that will already be some pretty good traction. It's theoretically better than a typical Subaru since most have open diffs front and rear (although the electronic traction control kind of acts as limited slip on those). You can always add a TBD up front later on if you find you need it.
One thing I haven't mentioned, is that you will need to replace the original VW viscous coupling in the Syncro front diff with a solid shaft in order to use the Subaru AWD system.
How are you planning on mounting the transmission? Several people recently have cut and sectioned the transverse member under the van to get clearance. My favorite configuration has always been to put the transmission behind the transverse member, but far forward as it can go. That way there is no potential compromise to the strength of the unibody.
Cheers,
Dave |
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alijonny
Samba Member
Joined: November 01, 2007
Posts: 328
Location: Des Plaines, IL
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 2:19 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| D Clymer wrote: |
| human compass wrote: |
awesome. thanks Dave. so I think I'll go with a non locking vw front diff with an LSD. the transmission will be from a turbo (i believe these have a lower first gear) and will also have a pelequin. this should effectively mimic a suby awd.
sound good?!
I'm super stoked!! |
I think I would just use a standard Syncro front differential with no TBD fitted and save the $1200 plus installation cost. If you have a TBD in the rear, and the Subaru center diff with its viscous locking function, that will already be some pretty good traction. It's theoretically better than a typical Subaru since most have open diffs front and rear (although the electronic traction control kind of acts as limited slip on those). You can always add a TBD up front later on if you find you need it.
One thing I haven't mentioned, is that you will need to replace the original VW viscous coupling in the Syncro front diff with a solid shaft in order to use the Subaru AWD system.
How are you planning on mounting the transmission? Several people recently have cut and sectioned the transverse member under the van to get clearance. My favorite configuration has always been to put the transmission behind the transverse member, but far forward as it can go. That way there is no potential compromise to the strength of the unibody.
Cheers,
Dave |
I can safely say I am that one of those several people who installed a subigears AWD trans into a syncro westy, including being the first in the US (or worldwide maybe) to drive a syncro subie drivetrain Vanagon lol. Fritz' syncro has a 2010 2.5L. there is no room to move things back, maybe a little less than an inch, so it would not be worth all the hassle. no matter what you do, the transverse member will need to be opened up. any other way would result in the trans and engine sitting way below the factory syncro engine/trans setup. then you lose a ton of ground clearance. There really is no other way around this without modification to the trans itself ,unfortunately. Maybe someone in the future can prove me wrong, and I hope they do. until then , cutting and channeling the transverse member in the rear will have to be done.
_________________
1965 Beetle
1990 Syncro Westfalia
1983 Westfalia |
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Thu Sep 28, 2017 5:41 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| alijonny wrote: |
I can safely say I am that one of those several people who installed a subigears AWD trans into a syncro westy, including being the first in the US (or worldwide maybe) to drive a syncro subie drivetrain Vanagon lol. Fritz' syncro has a 2010 2.5L. there is no room to move things back, maybe a little less than an inch, so it would not be worth all the hassle. no matter what you do, the transverse member will need to be opened up. any other way would result in the trans and engine sitting way below the factory syncro engine/trans setup. then you lose a ton of ground clearance. There really is no other way around this without modification to the trans itself ,unfortunately. Maybe someone in the future can prove me wrong, and I hope they do. until then , cutting and channeling the transverse member in the rear will have to be done. |
I was the originator of the Subaru 5 speed transmission into a Vanagon back in 2010 and I have done considerable mock-up work on the transmission into a Syncro. The center differential output shaft, billet end cover, and drive flange were items that I worked in partnership with Todd at Subarugears to develop and I contributed a significant number of the design details.
The original mock-up Syncro that those parts were developed from is mine, and I have successfully mounted the full Subaru AWD drivetrain behind the transverse beam with the engine at the stock Syncro height, and the transmission at a height that puts the output flange for the center driveshaft the same distance from the floor of the van as the same flange on the original Syncro tranny. I ground the casting ridge off of the top of the center differential housing to gain more clearance below the gas tank and beveled the top of the billet plate to allow the trans to be close to the transverse member while maintaining stock Syncro amounts of clearance. I used both a Subaru engine and a wasserboxer attached to the Subaru trans by a Subarugears adaptor to study the resulting location of the engine, and in both cases the engine mounts with plenty of space behind for the muffler.
From this development work, I believe a behind the beam mounting is possible while keeping the engine and transmission at the proper Syncro height.
Dave |
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robot_trouble
Samba Member
Joined: May 16, 2017
Posts: 5
Location: Philadelphia, PA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| D Clymer wrote: |
From this development work, I believe a behind the beam mounting is possible while keeping the engine and transmission at the proper Syncro height.
Dave |
Dave, can you explain where the challenges are in designing an off the shelf transmission mount for the Syncro? Is this something you or anyone else is working on? I'm also curious if the requirements for positioning the drivetrain means that off the shelf motor mounts for the subaru conversion will no longer work. It seems like we have a few proven machines and it would be great if we could start moving towards a full conversion kit. I have a syncro with a 2WD trans installed, but the front diff still in place, which would make a great candidate. |
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:10 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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such a cool discussion! thank you guys!
_________________
84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp |
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| robot_trouble wrote: |
| D Clymer wrote: |
From this development work, I believe a behind the beam mounting is possible while keeping the engine and transmission at the proper Syncro height.
Dave |
Dave, can you explain where the challenges are in designing an off the shelf transmission mount for the Syncro? Is this something you or anyone else is working on? I'm also curious if the requirements for positioning the drivetrain means that off the shelf motor mounts for the subaru conversion will no longer work. It seems like we have a few proven machines and it would be great if we could start moving towards a full conversion kit. I have a syncro with a 2WD trans installed, but the front diff still in place, which would make a great candidate. |
The challenge lies in providing a path for the rear shift linkage rod where it connects to the transmission selector lever. For the 2wd conversion, I cut an inconsequential access hole through the transverse frame member for the linkage rod to pass through. Unfortunately, with the Syncro, the engine and transmission sit nearly 2" lower than with the 2wd and this places the necessary path for the shift linkage rod right though the base of the transverse member. You could always notch the transverse member and weld in some plates to preserve the strength provided by the bottom of the beam. I have something else planned that will allow for the same access hole used in the 2wd conversion.
The engine will sit in a different position compared to a standard Subaru conversion with the VW trans, so the Smallcar mount would be the natural choice here since it allows for mounting anywhere along the rear longitudinal parallel members of the van. The RMW and KEP engine mount bars would have to be modified in order to work.
The transmission mounts for mounting the Subaru trans in the Syncro are pretty straightforward. I've created prototype mounts that bolt to the existing mounting holes in the Subaru transmission case and interface perfectly with the stock Syncro rubber mounts and brackets under the van.
I completed the basic mock-up of the Subaru AWD transmission two years ago, and the original plan was to have a conversion kit available just like the one I sell for the 2wd Subaru 5 speed conversion. Unfortunately my career job got a lot more busy, and there has been so much demand for my 2wd kit, that my time allocation for things Vanagon has been completely absorbed by providing 2wd kits to customers. (I'm proud to say that we deliver over 30 kits this year.)
I do still plan to finish the Syncro "behind the beam" installation, though, and hope to offer it alongside the 2wd kit. It's very close, actually. I just need to finish my shift linkage interface and install a functional version of the mock-up drivetrain into my running and driving Syncro.
Dave |
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:52 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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Interesting. so my 2.5 is mounted with the RMW kit and I'm converting my 2wd to a syncro. since the engine is in the stock 2wd position/height do you think the linkage will still present a problem?
also, are your prototype mounts for sale by chance??
_________________
84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp |
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D Clymer
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2005
Posts: 2978
Location: Issaquah, WA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 5:46 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| human compass wrote: |
Interesting. so my 2.5 is mounted with the RMW kit and I'm converting my 2wd to a syncro. since the engine is in the stock 2wd position/height do you think the linkage will still present a problem?
also, are your prototype mounts for sale by chance?? |
If you go the route of cutting through the beam like the early adopters have done, it should be pretty straightforward. You would need to mount the engine from the lower set of holes on the RMW engine carrier bracket. I haven't mocked this combination up, but from what I've seen, the front of the transmission case would be able to pass under the clearanced area of the transverse beam. That would allow you to keep the standard engine location dictated by the RMW engine carrier bar. Then you could custom tailor the length of the Subarugears front driveshaft flange to allow for proper mating to the Syncro driveshaft. With the beam cut through, the shift linkage interface would be straightforward. I have supplied shift linkage solutions to two of the people who have done the installation in this manner.
For front transmission mounts, you'd need something different from mine since your transmission would be further forward. What I would do is hang the engine from the lower Syncro holes on the RMW mount. Then I would position the AWD Subaru transaxle so that the mount flange for the center driveshaft is the same distance from the floor as the stock Syncro flange. With the flange in approximately the same place fore/aft, your transmission would be properly positioned. Then you could have custom mounts made.
This may be way too much information for where you're at right now with the project, but it's a good general outline of what would will be involved.
Cheers,
Dave |
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 8:59 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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UPDATE-went with a 6 speed, cable shift, subie transmission with pelequin. using a stock front diff with locker. here it is mocked up. with rmw engine mounts I'm told the the driveline is in the perfect plane.
[/img]
_________________
84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp
Last edited by human compass on Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:24 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Steve Arndt
Samba Member
Joined: August 01, 2005
Posts: 1780
Location: Boise, Idaho
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 9:15 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| gears wrote: |
| Why would you put a TBD in the front diff? Assuming a VC is used, a TBD will do nothing in the front, only in the rear. |
Can you explain? I have a stock Syncro. I was considering installing a TBD in the front.
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Steve
Steve's 87 Syncro project |
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11BC2
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2017
Posts: 495
Location: Cool, California
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 10:32 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| human compass wrote: |
| UPDATE-went with a 6 speed, cable shift, sti transmission.. |
That's not an STi transmission; I only mention it so others don't accidentally buy an STi trans thinking it will fit.
That's great work, btw. I very interested in how this turns out. |
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:22 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| Steve Arndt wrote: |
| gears wrote: |
| Why would you put a TBD in the front diff? Assuming a VC is used, a TBD will do nothing in the front, only in the rear. |
Can you explain? I have a stock Syncro. I was considering installing a TBD in the front. |
while you cant put a locker into a subie transaxle you can put a TBD. You can do either in a VW front dif. Ive heard concerns of binding while turning with a fron TBD so chose to go with a selectable (on or off) locker.
_________________
84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp |
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 11:23 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| 11BC2 wrote: |
| human compass wrote: |
| UPDATE-went with a 6 speed, cable shift, sti transmission.. |
That's not an STi transmission; I only mention it so others don't accidentally buy an STi trans thinking it will fit.
That's great work, btw. I very interested in how this turns out. |
Thanks for the clarification and sorry for the misinformation. I"ve got a shop in Bend doing it because I'm not that skilled. Its been there for like 9 months and I'm loosing track of the specifics apparently!
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84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp |
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DirtyBlueVan
Samba Member
Joined: April 19, 2013
Posts: 122
Location: Oregon
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| Posted: Fri Sep 21, 2018 7:34 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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| human compass wrote: |
| 11BC2 wrote: |
| human compass wrote: |
| UPDATE-went with a 6 speed, cable shift, sti transmission.. |
That's not an STi transmission; I only mention it so others don't accidentally buy an STi trans thinking it will fit.
That's great work, btw. I very interested in how this turns out. |
Thanks for the clarification and sorry for the misinformation. I"ve got a shop in Bend doing it because I'm not that skilled. Its been there for like 9 months and I'm loosing track of the specifics apparently! |
That's a great setup! Keep the updates coming. Super appreciated
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1989 Syncro Westfalia 2.5 smallcar subie |
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0cean
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Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1149
Location: California
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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awesome! post yours up when youre done! I'ld love to see it. cheers!
_________________
84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp |
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human compass
Samba Member
Joined: June 04, 2013
Posts: 423
Location: Flagstaff,AZ
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| Posted: Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:34 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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here is a pic of the front starting to come together![img]
[/img]
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84 Westy Syncro- 3.3L SVX stage 2 tune,subaru gears 6speed with tbd, front locker, porche brakes x4, aux tank, radflo susp |
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0cean
Samba Member
Joined: February 29, 2012
Posts: 1149
Location: California
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| Posted: Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:04 pm Post subject: Re: Suby AWD vs Suby tranny with Syncro diff?? |
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What do you think of the axle flange position on the transmission and axle flange position on the rear trailing arms? Do they line up will or is the angle a problem? Mostly the front to rear angles is what i am wondering about?
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I'm not a mechanic, I just play one on the internet
Cluster Rebuild:
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Left for Dead the Resurrection Story Build:
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=613669
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