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ATLvolksfan Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2009 Posts: 141 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:39 am Post subject: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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Alright VW gurus, tell me what, if anything, is going on here. 36hp engine, rebuilt and only had about 3000 miles on the rebuild. I was having some oil pressure problems and investigated thoroughly before I pulled my engine apart to check out the bearings. On the face of it, is there anything wrong with these? I don't like the discoloration, but don't know if it's normal or not. Thanks!
_________________ "Come to terms with your Ass, for it bears you." - John Muir |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:50 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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Cant say for sure from a photograph such as this, but it appears there are chunks of wear bits present, and gouges. indicating contaminated oil. maybe also the bearing clearances not right?
you have bad pressure, so also examine the pump, pick up tube.
the bearings and the one crank image show problems. the crank bearing surface appears goiged along with the shell.
then again, internet photos can be decieving, resolution, lighting etc....
what cleanance is there?
good luck _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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ATLvolksfan Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2009 Posts: 141 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:57 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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I should have cleaned things up a bit before I took the pictures. The grime dirt wasn't there when I opened the engine. As far as clearance goes, are you talking about mic'ing it? _________________ "Come to terms with your Ass, for it bears you." - John Muir |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 9:59 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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Oil becomes acidic when left in too long, also probably some particulate matter caused this. Lets see the crankshaft. If it mics out you can probably get by with a polish. I've seen bearing overheat and stick to the crank, again its all in the measurement. |
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ATLvolksfan Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2009 Posts: 141 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:06 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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These are the respective journals. They seem fine to me, but again i guess it depends on the measurements.
_________________ "Come to terms with your Ass, for it bears you." - John Muir |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:53 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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ATLvolksfan wrote: |
These are the respective journals. They seem fine to me, but again i guess it depends on the measurements.
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Yes naked eye can't catch worn to a taper or out of round.
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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1.164 inches is that what they all read? (29.57 mm) that will tell the cut you have and size needed for the shells. Have you figured out why pressure was lost, what happened? _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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ATLvolksfan Samba Member
Joined: May 07, 2009 Posts: 141 Location: Atlanta
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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During the past 6ish years that my engine has been done, I have only occasionally used the car. It has always ran great and has always, since day 1 of the rebuild, had the oil pressure light flicker on at idle when it is fully warmed up. I know that is normal, and I haven't ever been too concerned over it. A couple of months ago, I installed a WW Okrasa kit on my motor. It made the engine run a whole lot better, but I started noticing that every once in a while I would hear a low knock when I started it from warm or cold. This eventually began to be coupled with the oil pressure light taking a couple of seconds to turn off when I started it up, and then it became me having to rev the engine at startup to get the oil light to go off. I checked all of the regular stuff (oil pump clearance, pressure relief valve, etc) and everything checked out fine. I changed my oil and found some metal flakes which was worriesome. When I changed the oil I stepped up to a 20w-50 to see if it would make any difference. On startup it did, the light went out quicker, but it came on at idle right after startup with the engine still being cold which was not normal for my engine.
My best guess is that it was something to do with the bearings, but nothing is jumping out at me other than the discoloration on the bearings. _________________ "Come to terms with your Ass, for it bears you." - John Muir |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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ATLvolksfan wrote: |
During the past 6ish years that my engine has been done, I have only occasionally used the car. It has always ran great and has always, since day 1 of the rebuild, had the oil pressure light flicker on at idle when it is fully warmed up. I know that is normal, and I haven't ever been too concerned over it. A couple of months ago, I installed a WW Okrasa kit on my motor. It made the engine run a whole lot better, but I started noticing that every once in a while I would hear a low knock when I started it from warm or cold. This eventually began to be coupled with the oil pressure light taking a couple of seconds to turn off when I started it up, and then it became me having to rev the engine at startup to get the oil light to go off. I checked all of the regular stuff (oil pump clearanc7e, pressure relief valve, etc) and everything checked out fine. I changed my oil and found some metal flakes which was worriesome. When I changed the oil I stepped up to a 20w-50 to see if it would make any difference. On startup it did, the light went out quicker, but it came on at idle right after startup with the engine still being cold which was not normal for my engine.
My best guess is that it was something to do with the bearings, but nothing is jumping out at me other than the discoloration on the bearings. |
if only defect is discolor of bearing, you should assmble enough to recheck the cleanance, I suppose. discoloring in itself wont change the diminsion much, its a very thin layer likely _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:15 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
ATLvolksfan wrote: |
During the past 6ish years that my engine has been done, I have only occasionally used the car. It has always ran great and has always, since day 1 of the rebuild, had the oil pressure light flicker on at idle when it is fully warmed up. I know that is normal, and I haven't ever been too concerned over it. A couple of months ago, I installed a WW Okrasa kit on my motor. It made the engine run a whole lot better, but I started noticing that every once in a while I would hear a low knock when I started it from warm or cold. This eventually began to be coupled with the oil pressure light taking a couple of seconds to turn off when I started it up, and then it became me having to rev the engine at startup to get the oil light to go off. I checked all of the regular stuff (oil pump clearanc7e, pressure relief valve, etc) and everything checked out fine. I changed my oil and found some metal flakes which was worriesome. When I changed the oil I stepped up to a 20w-50 to see if it would make any difference. On startup it did, the light went out quicker, but it came on at idle right after startup with the engine still being cold which was not normal for my engine.
My best guess is that it was something to do with the bearings, but nothing is jumping out at me other than the discoloration on the bearings. |
if only defect is discolor of bearing, you should assmble enough to recheck the cleanance, I suppose. discoloring in itself wont change the diminsion much, its a very thin layer likely |
also if you hop upped the motor and had knocking, you likely would have high temps, which can cause oil pressure loss and lead to discoloring of metal maybe high temps is the cause, nrought on by too much advance for the engine? you often have inaudible knocking occuring at a low level if you have audiable knock at times, and even inaudible knocking can raise temps. Do you have temp gage data.? _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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williamM Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008 Posts: 4333 Location: southwest Arizona
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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That forward bearing (the thrust) looks to have a high spot where the dowel pin goes. Or was installed wrong and then installed correctly. It looks like excessive clearances to me and yes- filthy oil.- Personally I would get some oversized bearings and have the machinist cut to fit at.0015 or .002 clearance. also pull the galley plugs and have them tapped for screw in plugs so you can run a brush down thru there and get rid of all the bad bits- a new oil cooler is not out of line. Go one step up in oil pump and run thin oil- not the 20-50 everybody hates here. Maybe one of the popular oil filter pumps is in order.
Or you can keep replacing this shit every 10,000 miles??
you can REALLY SAVE money$$$ not buying new oil.
[img][/img] _________________ some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6554 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 10:16 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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What's the name of that fancy tool? _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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overdrive Samba Member
Joined: November 21, 2016 Posts: 75 Location: Not Sure
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:36 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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kawfee wrote: |
What's the name of that fancy tool? |
hmm Mic |
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heimlich VWNOS.com
Joined: November 20, 2016 Posts: 6554 Location: Houston, Texas
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Posted: Sun Sep 24, 2017 11:58 pm Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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It looks as though they can get expensive very fast. Any reliable brand? _________________ www.vwnos.com [email protected]
Classic Brands. Classic Quality.
Not all parts are made the same. NOS OE/OEM parts made mainly in West Germany, Early Germany, and Early Brazil are where VW produced the best quality parts and best fitting products.
5% Off your order with coupon code: 5%OFF
Restored Distributors Available (<--Click here) |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 4:32 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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As with most tooling there's professional grade and then there's the cheap shit.
The 2 to 3 inch micrometer pictured is Starrett which is U.S. Made and been around forever. Several other lesser known U.S. brands are considered commercial grade and the there's Mitutoyo Japanese also high grade. The chinese sell there own brand which is probably just right for some of the folks here
Just like any tooling, best course of action would be buy professional grade on used market which in many cases is cheaper than buying the inferior chinese knock off.
**edit** looked over at eBay, you can buy Starret all day long from 15 to 50 bucks. The no name chinese was 10 plus shipping. So it's a wash, you can have good quality or shit quality same money. |
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bluebus86 Banned
Joined: September 02, 2010 Posts: 11075
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:04 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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kawfee wrote: |
It looks as though they can get expensive very fast. Any reliable brand? |
also called a micrometer. (mic for short) the one shown reads to .001 inch, better ones read to .0001 inch with a vernier scale. the .0001 type usually cost more, but have ten times the persicion. _________________ Help Prevent VW Engine Fires, see this link.....Engine safety wire information
Stop introducing dirt into your oil when adjusting valves ... https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=683022 |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:18 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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bluebus86 wrote: |
kawfee wrote: |
It looks as though they can get expensive very fast. Any reliable brand? |
also called a micrometer. (mic for short) the one shown reads to .001 inch, better ones read to .0001 inch with a vernier scale. the .0001 type usually cost more, but have ten times the persicion. |
Yes precision here's a pic and an explanation of how to read.
It's 2-3 inch so first number is 2. You've past the first graduation on the spindle so it's 1. Each small graduation beyond that is .025 so add 50 because you are 2 past that. Now looking at the thimble ( part that rotates) add .014 now because you are between 14 and 15 you could read that in .0000 so your final measure would read 2.164.5 find that in this VW without guesswork spec book. Yes the better mic which reads in 10 thousands would be ideal.
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williamM Samba Member
Joined: August 07, 2008 Posts: 4333 Location: southwest Arizona
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:31 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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If you have trouble seeing that scale- you can get them with an "Odometer" style read- That for me kept the decimal where it belongs- I've had mine for 35 years and still reading fine- but I like to set bearings by clearance anyway. _________________ some days I get up and just sit and think. Some days I just sit.
opinion untempered by fact is ignorance.
Don't step in any! |
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Zundfolge1432 Samba Member
Joined: June 13, 2004 Posts: 12452
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:43 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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williamM wrote: |
If you have trouble seeing that scale- you can get them with an "Odometer" style read- That for me kept the decimal where it belongs- I've had mine for 35 years and still reading fine- but I like to set bearings by clearance anyway. |
And then there's the digital electronic versions that only require you read the numbers flashed on a screen. Where's the skill? Have we dumbed down that much? even with reading the numbers there is a feel not unlike using feeler gauges, this is developed with practice and experience. I convinced most anyone can learn this stuff. |
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klroger Samba Member
Joined: September 22, 2017 Posts: 149 Location: deep river, Ottawa Valley
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Posted: Mon Sep 25, 2017 6:49 am Post subject: Re: If you saw this bearing what would you think? |
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Correct me if i'm wrong, but should you not be using "Plastigage" to check the bearing clearance?? I think just measuring the crank would only tell if the crank was worn... I don't really know, tho... |
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