Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Robbie is building another engine…
Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 21, 22, 23  Next
Jump to:
Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Clatter
Samba Member


Joined: September 24, 2003
Posts: 4248
Location: Santa Cruz
Clatter is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

Well Awlright!!

I end up in the same boat;
A motor that has plenty of reasons to be pulled out and apart,
But none of them pressing,
And another here all built up ready to go save for an excuse to do so..!

Just like a counterweighted crank,
A dynamic balance job is a plus for any motor.

Kind of like Hoover oiling mods,
Or single springs,
Or solid shafts,
Or swivel feet,
Or a deep sump,
Or full-flow,
Or.. Or..

Down the rabbit hole we go...

Very Happy
_________________
Bus Motor Build
Fastback Build

What's That Noise??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
asiab3
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 10070
Location: San Diego
asiab3 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

Re: RPM

forgot to attach this:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Summer (and fall, and winter practically,) Tour is wrapping up. Now booking Fall/Winter lessons in Southern California!
www.airschooled.com/learn-to-fix-your-volkswagen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 2726
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
It likes an honest-to-goodness 65mph "Maximum/Cruising Speed" at 18mpg, and will get me 20-21mpg at 60mph with no drop in head temps(?) Retarding the timing 3° for kicks did nothing besides make the engine smoother at high RPM, so I left it there.

What's that in RPM? (My speedo is very optimistic, but I have never fixed it because of the novelty of being able to cruse down the freeway at an "indicated" 80+...)

Quote:
New engine went from ~350 miles to ~1400 miles this weekend on a trip to Phoenix.

I'm calling it broken in for now.


Concur.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
asiab3
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 10070
Location: San Diego
asiab3 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
It's a slippery slope down the rabbit hole. You build an engine with a nice crank that really wants to spin. And it sound sooo nice doing it that it's hard to resist. But that brings up weaknesses. So you improve the fan. Then you add heavy duty valve springs so the valves don't float, but those need steel push rods that don't flex. But then you need solid spacers on the rocker shafts to keep the rockers centered up nicely from the load of the heavy duty springs, etc., etc... And down the rabbit hole you go. Each step is so easy, and so hard to resist... Very Happy


It's ok, I get to ride in Brian's bug for my fix there. Very Happy (Not kidding, I had to break-out my handheld tach when he did a 6,000 RPM pull on Coast Highway. I did not believe it.)

--

New engine went from ~350 miles to ~1400 miles this weekend on a trip to Phoenix. Consumed about 1/2 quart of oil in the last 800 miles since I topped off. Pretty good, especially considering its age and the Colorado Build's penchant for eating oil.

It likes an honest-to-goodness 65mph "Maximum/Cruising Speed" at 18mpg, and will get me 20-21mpg at 60mph with no drop in head temps(?) Retarding the timing 3° for kicks did nothing besides make the engine smoother at high RPM, so I left it there.

I borrowed a middle seat and we crammed seven sweaty dudes in for a weekend of baseball games all over Phoenix. We passed some cars but mostly hung out in the right lane.

I'm calling it broken in for now.
Robbie
_________________
Summer (and fall, and winter practically,) Tour is wrapping up. Now booking Fall/Winter lessons in Southern California!
www.airschooled.com/learn-to-fix-your-volkswagen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SGKent Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 30, 2007
Posts: 31228
Location: Nor Cal
SGKent is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

Seems like the common rev limiter was about 5200 RPM. New stock springs will easily go there but not much more. MY 71 DP had hd single springs and original springs at various times in its life. It could turn 6,000 RPM for hours on end. That is why it would only last 40,000 miles between something starting to fail like studs pulling. Stock crank that had been balanced professionally. almost 500,000 miles on two cranks. First one the shims cut to the dowels one night running in deep water. I was always more worried about the mass of the lifters, pushrods and rocker arms causing issues. They are actually pretty rugged engines.
_________________
Godspeed to all who undertake a journey in a VW Bus.

*You can do it right the first time, or do it over, the choice is yours. It is a free country. As to brakes, steering, tires, axles etc. - you may only get one chance at doing those right.

It isn't our fault you bought a 50-year old toy you can't afford. None of us can afford it really. Even Steve Jobs had to sell his bus to make his financial life work.

1971 (sold)
1977
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
notchboy
Samba Member


Joined: April 27, 2002
Posts: 19442
Location: Escondido CA
notchboy is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:01 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

TomWesty wrote:
I lost a perfectly good night of sleep watching you assemble that beast, I hope it runs a long time. Cool


Ha. I think I was up drinking that night. Cool Laughing

Ditto hope it keeps you pluggin along.
_________________
t3kg wrote:

OK, this thread is over. You win.

Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1974 Westfalia Hardtop Campmobile
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cdennisg
Samba Member


Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 16913
Location: Sandpoint, ID
cdennisg is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
And down the rabbit hole you go. Each step is so easy, and so hard to resist... Very Happy


An old friend taught me about that. We called it the "might as well" theory. If you are going to do this, you might as well do this... It is indeed a rabbit hole.
_________________
My uncle had a pyramid, and it never broke.


---Cold War Motors
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 2726
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:50 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
DPR balances fans, so I’ll be heading there next month to get rid of the last little bit of vibration....

And that's VERY important, because the fan is now the main weak point! Spinning to 5K and beyond will eventually cause a non-welded and/or unbalanced fan to EXPLODE! What a mess that makes. Completely destroys the fan housing and flaps. (Ask me how I know...)

The second weak point is valve springs. The stock springs can't keep the lifters in constant contact with the cam at 5K (valve float), so they start slamming instead of smoothly setting the valves back on their seats. You know what happens to unhappy valves and lifters...

It's a slippery slope down the rabbit hole. You build an engine with a nice crank that really wants to spin. And it sound sooo nice doing it that it's hard to resist. But that brings up weaknesses. So you improve the fan. Then you add heavy duty valve springs so the valves don't float, but those need steel push rods that don't flex. But then you need solid spacers on the rocker shafts to keep the rockers centered up nicely from the load of the heavy duty springs, etc., etc... And down the rabbit hole you go. Each step is so easy, and so hard to resist... Very Happy
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 11403
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:48 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

DPR Balance’s Fan’s and DPRK Un Balances them?
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
asiab3
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 10070
Location: San Diego
asiab3 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:29 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
You better be getting more than 28 hp... (even at the wheels).


When I did a 0-60 pull on the old engine, around 60k, I weighed my chassis and did some math. 28hp at the wheels in 2017. Now I can’t stop passing people and accelerating like your bus... it just zings up past 4k with little effort.

Idle is honestly where I feel most difference from the CW crank. If my radio is on, I can’t feel weather or not the engine is on.

DPR balances fans, so I’ll be heading there next month to get rid of the last little bit of vibration....

Robbie
_________________
Summer (and fall, and winter practically,) Tour is wrapping up. Now booking Fall/Winter lessons in Southern California!
www.airschooled.com/learn-to-fix-your-volkswagen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 2726
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:21 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

I've heard / seen it before. Old Chevy 283 with worn cylinders had a noticeable ridge at the cylinder tops. It got spun up pretty good one day and broke the top rings as they hit the ridge. Nothing is rigid; everything flexes - a little. Especially engines.

You better be getting more than 28 hp... (even at the wheels).
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
asiab3
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 10070
Location: San Diego
asiab3 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:43 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

cdennisg wrote:
Have not heard that theory before, but it does make some sense. Interesting.


Colin mentioned it to me years ago as well, but I have never read it on here. Then again, me and my 28hp don't spend much time in the performance forum. Cool

Robbie
_________________
Summer (and fall, and winter practically,) Tour is wrapping up. Now booking Fall/Winter lessons in Southern California!
www.airschooled.com/learn-to-fix-your-volkswagen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
cdennisg
Samba Member


Joined: November 02, 2004
Posts: 16913
Location: Sandpoint, ID
cdennisg is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:42 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
Apparently the higher piston speeds can cause the rods/pins/crank to flex JUST enough to extend the stroke out far enough to extend the rings past their normal swept area.every day during break-in. The 2014 build didn't exactly do that… Laughing

Robbie


Have not heard that theory before, but it does make some sense. Interesting.
_________________
My uncle had a pyramid, and it never broke.


---Cold War Motors
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
asiab3
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 10070
Location: San Diego
asiab3 is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

telford dorr wrote:
Good to see you finally got it installed. Isn't the counterweighted crank nice? You'll like it even better when doing those hours long runs turning 4000 r/m in the middle of nowhere, safe in the knowledge that you're not beating the center main bearing to death (because, even though we do it regularly, VW never intended a bus to be driven like that)...

Word to the wise: even though the engine really wants to do it, go easy on the 4400 r/m stuff until the valves have time to mate well with their guides. Oiling up there is what I consider marginal, and you don't want to have a valve stick. Should only take a few hundred miles or so.


Regularly? The old engine Lived at 3,900 for months at a time every summer… Very Happy My very first engine was a mystery motor that was bored to 4th oversize. I put about 40k on it, and had Adrian inspect it. He said it did not need any work done besides a good cleaning. Do you think that older magnesium getting hard and brittle becomes less likely to wear/warp/wallow out?

Thanks for the advice on the high RPM avoidance; I've always taken new engines up towards their intended redline on the second or third break-in drive… My uncle had an engine that was babied its whole life, and when he redlined it a compression ring snapped… Apparently the higher piston speeds can cause the rods/pins/crank to flex JUST enough to extend the stroke out far enough to extend the rings past their normal swept area. That was years ago, so perhaps I got the details wrong, but he's still got the piston on his workbench. So color me spooked; I've always kept the reminder of those speeds fresh in my engine's memories… Cool

It's nice to have an engine tighten up its valve adjustments every day during break-in. The 2014 build didn't exactly do that… Laughing

Robbie
_________________
Summer (and fall, and winter practically,) Tour is wrapping up. Now booking Fall/Winter lessons in Southern California!
www.airschooled.com/learn-to-fix-your-volkswagen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
telford dorr
Samba Member


Joined: March 11, 2009
Posts: 2726
Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
telford dorr is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:04 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

Good to see you finally got it installed. Isn't the counterweighted crank nice? You'll like it even better when doing those hours long runs turning 4000 r/m in the middle of nowhere, safe in the knowledge that you're not beating the center main bearing to death (because, even though we do it regularly, VW never intended a bus to be driven like that)...

Word to the wise: even though the engine really wants to do it, go easy on the 4400 r/m stuff until the valves have time to mate well with their guides. Oiling up there is what I consider marginal, and you don't want to have a valve stick. Should only take a few hundred miles or so.
_________________
'71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research - Steven Wright
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
All models are wrong; some are useful - George Box
More VW electrical at http://flowcon.us/td/ (available 9am to 9pm PST)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 11403
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

ORcas In the Bay. Thats a killer shot to wail about.
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
TomWesty
Samba Member


Joined: November 23, 2007
Posts: 3160
Location: Wyoming,USA
TomWesty is offline 

PostPosted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:12 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

I lost a perfectly good night of sleep watching you assemble that beast, I hope it runs a long time. Cool
_________________
If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Classifieds Feedback
asiab3
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 10070
Location: San Diego
asiab3 is offline 

PostPosted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:19 am    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

Three weeks shy of one year since completing the long block, I took it to pick up donuts and VR1 this morning. The counter-balanced single port engine is a strange beast; the torque below 3,000 is crazy and the precision above 4,400 is music to my ears, that should cut at least seven minutes off my Pike's Peak time trial this Summer.

The zero-mile rings gave me a chance to drive like every other driver on the road these days, accelerating hard all the time… But instead of slamming on the brakes, I got hard off-throttle overrun with some unnecessary double clutch downshifting for more ring break in goodness.

Feels good to be back in the saddle, even if it was just a week off…

See you on the road,
Robbie

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Summer (and fall, and winter practically,) Tour is wrapping up. Now booking Fall/Winter lessons in Southern California!
www.airschooled.com/learn-to-fix-your-volkswagen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Xevin Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: January 08, 2014
Posts: 3820

Xevin is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:27 pm    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:

It sounded just like my last engine in person, with a few different vibrations. Not more or less vibration, just different.


Cool buddy. Glad you happy wit it. Almost went Beach Boys but Mark felt more appropriate Very Happy


Link

_________________
Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote:
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! Very Happy

Clatter wrote:
Damn that Xevin... Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Abscate wrote:
I dont hate anyone on the Samba - except for Xevin - who brought me cold coffee in the morning.

[email protected] wrote:
I respect Xevin and he's a turd Razz
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
asiab3
Air-Schooled


Joined: April 04, 2012
Posts: 10070
Location: San Diego
asiab3 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
Just fire it up Robbie and break it in. You should be getting 60,000 to 80,000 per engine - are you?


Done.

The last collection of parts known as an "engine" got 83,000 miles except for the cam, lifters, cam bearings, and points. It is still in "running long block" form under a sheet in my garage. It will be for sale in about a month for a dismally low price.

Out with the old…

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



In with the new!

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



That thing fired up on the first compression stroke, which really eased my mind about removing a perfectly reliable engine…

Bummer that my video camera thought the engine sound was background noise and automatically tried to drown it out with software… It sounded just like my last engine in person, with a few different vibrations. Not more or less vibration, just different.


Link



Here I am waking up the rings at about the ten minute mark… That 20-minute cam break in sure is the longest 20 minutes of one's life…


Link



I kept an eye on the oil pressure gauge from the back hatch, though it never went below 40psi @ 2,200 RPM.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



First oil change was SO much cleaner than the last engine… I thought for a second my magnetic drain plug was broken, but I guess that's how NOS lifters and cams are! Laughing

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



A new VW case will allow us to have every sled tin screw perfectly installed, for the first time since owning the car…

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.



Feeling cheesy.
See you on the road,
Robbie

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
Summer (and fall, and winter practically,) Tour is wrapping up. Now booking Fall/Winter lessons in Southern California!
www.airschooled.com/learn-to-fix-your-volkswagen
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Bay Window Bus All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3 ... 21, 22, 23  Next
Jump to:
Page 1 of 23

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2018, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB