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Clatter Samba Member
Joined: September 24, 2003 Posts: 7549 Location: Santa Cruz
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 8:29 pm Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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Well Awlright!!
I end up in the same boat;
A motor that has plenty of reasons to be pulled out and apart,
But none of them pressing,
And another here all built up ready to go save for an excuse to do so..!
Just like a counterweighted crank,
A dynamic balance job is a plus for any motor.
Kind of like Hoover oiling mods,
Or single springs,
Or solid shafts,
Or swivel feet,
Or a deep sump,
Or full-flow,
Or.. Or..
Down the rabbit hole we go...
_________________ Bus Motor Build
What’s That Noise?!? |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 2:18 pm Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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Re: RPM
forgot to attach this:
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:32 pm Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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asiab3 wrote: |
It likes an honest-to-goodness 65mph "Maximum/Cruising Speed" at 18mpg, and will get me 20-21mpg at 60mph with no drop in head temps(?) Retarding the timing 3° for kicks did nothing besides make the engine smoother at high RPM, so I left it there. |
What's that in RPM? (My speedo is very optimistic, but I have never fixed it because of the novelty of being able to cruse down the freeway at an "indicated" 80+...)
Quote: |
New engine went from ~350 miles to ~1400 miles this weekend on a trip to Phoenix.
I'm calling it broken in for now. |
Concur. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Mar 26, 2019 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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telford dorr wrote: |
It's a slippery slope down the rabbit hole. You build an engine with a nice crank that really wants to spin. And it sound sooo nice doing it that it's hard to resist. But that brings up weaknesses. So you improve the fan. Then you add heavy duty valve springs so the valves don't float, but those need steel push rods that don't flex. But then you need solid spacers on the rocker shafts to keep the rockers centered up nicely from the load of the heavy duty springs, etc., etc... And down the rabbit hole you go. Each step is so easy, and so hard to resist... |
It's ok, I get to ride in Brian's bug for my fix there. (Not kidding, I had to break-out my handheld tach when he did a 6,000 RPM pull on Coast Highway. I did not believe it.)
--
New engine went from ~350 miles to ~1400 miles this weekend on a trip to Phoenix. Consumed about 1/2 quart of oil in the last 800 miles since I topped off. Pretty good, especially considering its age and the Colorado Build's penchant for eating oil.
It likes an honest-to-goodness 65mph "Maximum/Cruising Speed" at 18mpg, and will get me 20-21mpg at 60mph with no drop in head temps(?) Retarding the timing 3° for kicks did nothing besides make the engine smoother at high RPM, so I left it there.
I borrowed a middle seat and we crammed seven sweaty dudes in for a weekend of baseball games all over Phoenix. We passed some cars but mostly hung out in the right lane.
I'm calling it broken in for now.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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SGKent Samba Member
Joined: October 30, 2007 Posts: 41031 Location: Citrus Heights CA (Near Sacramento)
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 8:21 pm Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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Seems like the common rev limiter was about 5200 RPM. New stock springs will easily go there but not much more. MY 71 DP had hd single springs and original springs at various times in its life. It could turn 6,000 RPM for hours on end. That is why it would only last 40,000 miles between something starting to fail like studs pulling. Stock crank that had been balanced professionally. almost 500,000 miles on two cranks. First one the shims cut to the dowels one night running in deep water. I was always more worried about the mass of the lifters, pushrods and rocker arms causing issues. They are actually pretty rugged engines. _________________ “Most people don’t know what they’re doing, and a lot of them are really good at it.” - George Carlin |
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notchboy Samba Member
Joined: April 27, 2002 Posts: 22463 Location: Escondido CA
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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TomWesty wrote: |
I lost a perfectly good night of sleep watching you assemble that beast, I hope it runs a long time. |
Ha. I think I was up drinking that night.
Ditto hope it keeps you pluggin along. _________________
t3kg wrote: |
OK, this thread is over. You win. |
Jason "notchboy" Weigel
1964 1500 S
1964 T34 S Convertible
1977 Westfalia Camper pop-top |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20278 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 10:24 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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telford dorr wrote: |
And down the rabbit hole you go. Each step is so easy, and so hard to resist... |
An old friend taught me about that. We called it the "might as well" theory. If you are going to do this, you might as well do this... It is indeed a rabbit hole. _________________ nothing |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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asiab3 wrote: |
DPR balances fans, so I’ll be heading there next month to get rid of the last little bit of vibration.... |
And that's VERY important, because the fan is now the main weak point! Spinning to 5K and beyond will eventually cause a non-welded and/or unbalanced fan to EXPLODE! What a mess that makes. Completely destroys the fan housing and flaps. (Ask me how I know...)
The second weak point is valve springs. The stock springs can't keep the lifters in constant contact with the cam at 5K (valve float), so they start slamming instead of smoothly setting the valves back on their seats. You know what happens to unhappy valves and lifters...
It's a slippery slope down the rabbit hole. You build an engine with a nice crank that really wants to spin. And it sound sooo nice doing it that it's hard to resist. But that brings up weaknesses. So you improve the fan. Then you add heavy duty valve springs so the valves don't float, but those need steel push rods that don't flex. But then you need solid spacers on the rocker shafts to keep the rockers centered up nicely from the load of the heavy duty springs, etc., etc... And down the rabbit hole you go. Each step is so easy, and so hard to resist... _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 3:48 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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DPR Balance’s Fan’s and DPRK Un Balances them? _________________ .ssS! |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:29 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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telford dorr wrote: |
You better be getting more than 28 hp... (even at the wheels). |
When I did a 0-60 pull on the old engine, around 60k, I weighed my chassis and did some math. 28hp at the wheels in 2017. Now I can’t stop passing people and accelerating like your bus... it just zings up past 4k with little effort.
Idle is honestly where I feel most difference from the CW crank. If my radio is on, I can’t feel weather or not the engine is on.
DPR balances fans, so I’ll be heading there next month to get rid of the last little bit of vibration....
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2019 12:21 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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I've heard / seen it before. Old Chevy 283 with worn cylinders had a noticeable ridge at the cylinder tops. It got spun up pretty good one day and broke the top rings as they hit the ridge. Nothing is rigid; everything flexes - a little. Especially engines.
You better be getting more than 28 hp... (even at the wheels). _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:43 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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cdennisg wrote: |
Have not heard that theory before, but it does make some sense. Interesting. |
Colin mentioned it to me years ago as well, but I have never read it on here. Then again, me and my 28hp don't spend much time in the performance forum.
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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cdennisg Samba Member
Joined: November 02, 2004 Posts: 20278 Location: Sandpoint, ID
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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asiab3 wrote: |
Apparently the higher piston speeds can cause the rods/pins/crank to flex JUST enough to extend the stroke out far enough to extend the rings past their normal swept area.every day during break-in. The 2014 build didn't exactly do that…
Robbie |
Have not heard that theory before, but it does make some sense. Interesting. _________________ nothing |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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telford dorr wrote: |
Good to see you finally got it installed. Isn't the counterweighted crank nice? You'll like it even better when doing those hours long runs turning 4000 r/m in the middle of nowhere, safe in the knowledge that you're not beating the center main bearing to death (because, even though we do it regularly, VW never intended a bus to be driven like that)...
Word to the wise: even though the engine really wants to do it, go easy on the 4400 r/m stuff until the valves have time to mate well with their guides. Oiling up there is what I consider marginal, and you don't want to have a valve stick. Should only take a few hundred miles or so. |
Regularly? The old engine Lived at 3,900 for months at a time every summer… My very first engine was a mystery motor that was bored to 4th oversize. I put about 40k on it, and had Adrian inspect it. He said it did not need any work done besides a good cleaning. Do you think that older magnesium getting hard and brittle becomes less likely to wear/warp/wallow out?
Thanks for the advice on the high RPM avoidance; I've always taken new engines up towards their intended redline on the second or third break-in drive… My uncle had an engine that was babied its whole life, and when he redlined it a compression ring snapped… Apparently the higher piston speeds can cause the rods/pins/crank to flex JUST enough to extend the stroke out far enough to extend the rings past their normal swept area. That was years ago, so perhaps I got the details wrong, but he's still got the piston on his workbench. So color me spooked; I've always kept the reminder of those speeds fresh in my engine's memories…
It's nice to have an engine tighten up its valve adjustments every day during break-in. The 2014 build didn't exactly do that…
Robbie _________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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telford dorr Samba Member
Joined: March 11, 2009 Posts: 3555 Location: San Diego (Encinitas)
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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Good to see you finally got it installed. Isn't the counterweighted crank nice? You'll like it even better when doing those hours long runs turning 4000 r/m in the middle of nowhere, safe in the knowledge that you're not beating the center main bearing to death (because, even though we do it regularly, VW never intended a bus to be driven like that)...
Word to the wise: even though the engine really wants to do it, go easy on the 4400 r/m stuff until the valves have time to mate well with their guides. Oiling up there is what I consider marginal, and you don't want to have a valve stick. Should only take a few hundred miles or so. _________________ '71 panel, now with FI
'Experience' is the ability to recognize a mistake when you're making it again - Franklin P. Jones
In theory, theory works in practice; in practice, it doesn't - William T. Harbaugh
When you're dead, you don't know you're dead. The pain is only felt by others.
Same thing happens when you're stupid. - Philippe Geluck
More VW electrical at http://telforddorr.com/ (available 9am to 9pm PST) |
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Abscate Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2014 Posts: 22670 Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 1:46 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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ORcas In the Bay. Thats a killer shot to wail about. _________________ .ssS! |
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TomWesty Samba Member
Joined: November 23, 2007 Posts: 3482 Location: Wyoming,USA
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Posted: Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:12 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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I lost a perfectly good night of sleep watching you assemble that beast, I hope it runs a long time. _________________ If you haven't bled on them, you haven't worked on them.
Visit: www.tomcoryell.com and check out my music! |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Wed Feb 27, 2019 9:19 am Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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Three weeks shy of one year since completing the long block, I took it to pick up donuts and VR1 this morning. The counter-balanced single port engine is a strange beast; the torque below 3,000 is crazy and the precision above 4,400 is music to my ears, that should cut at least seven minutes off my Pike's Peak time trial this Summer.
The zero-mile rings gave me a chance to drive like every other driver on the road these days, accelerating hard all the time… But instead of slamming on the brakes, I got hard off-throttle overrun with some unnecessary double clutch downshifting for more ring break in goodness.
Feels good to be back in the saddle, even if it was just a week off…
See you on the road,
Robbie
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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Xevin Samba Member
Joined: January 08, 2014 Posts: 7635
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:27 pm Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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asiab3 wrote: |
It sounded just like my last engine in person, with a few different vibrations. Not more or less vibration, just different. |
Cool buddy. Glad you happy wit it. Almost went Beach Boys but Mark felt more appropriate
Link
_________________ Keep on Busin'
67rustavenger wrote: |
GFY's Xevin and VW_Jimbo! |
Clatter wrote: |
Damn that Xevin... |
skills@eurocarsplus wrote: |
I respect Xevin and he's a turd |
SGKent wrote: |
My God! Xevin and I 100% agree |
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airschooled Air-Schooled
Joined: April 04, 2012 Posts: 12728 Location: on a bike ride somewhere
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Posted: Tue Feb 26, 2019 9:06 pm Post subject: Re: Robbie is building another engine… |
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SGKent wrote: |
Just fire it up Robbie and break it in. You should be getting 60,000 to 80,000 per engine - are you? |
Done.
The last collection of parts known as an "engine" got 83,000 miles except for the cam, lifters, cam bearings, and points. It is still in "running long block" form under a sheet in my garage. It will be for sale in about a month for a dismally low price.
Out with the old…
In with the new!
That thing fired up on the first compression stroke, which really eased my mind about removing a perfectly reliable engine…
Bummer that my video camera thought the engine sound was background noise and automatically tried to drown it out with software… It sounded just like my last engine in person, with a few different vibrations. Not more or less vibration, just different.
Link
Here I am waking up the rings at about the ten minute mark… That 20-minute cam break in sure is the longest 20 minutes of one's life…
Link
I kept an eye on the oil pressure gauge from the back hatch, though it never went below 40psi @ 2,200 RPM.
First oil change was SO much cleaner than the last engine… I thought for a second my magnetic drain plug was broken, but I guess that's how NOS lifters and cams are!
A new VW case will allow us to have every sled tin screw perfectly installed, for the first time since owning the car…
Feeling cheesy.
See you on the road,
Robbie
_________________ Learn how your vintage VW works. And why it doesn't!
One-on-one tech help for your Volkswagen:
www.airschooled.com |
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