| Author |
Message |
greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
|
 Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:06 am Post subject: Eliminating the Tunnel |
 |
|
Can the tunnel be replaced or reinforced or will something work as a substitute?
Do some roll cages connect both front and rear? (And everything else for that matter) making it so the integrity of the tunnel doesn't matter?
It seems the tunnel Is the weakest link. It collects moisture and rusts -- the car depends on it
I'm really worried about it. Im worried my car will rot away.
I'm wondering if there is a way to replace it?
I think this is what I've been trying to say. Can the tunnel be reinforced or replaced?
I'd like to have everything tied together so the darn'ed tunnel can rot away. I'd like to replace the tunnel with something that isn't prone to rust.
I'm not sure how much of a problem the tunnels are, they seem to be an issue. Once rust sets in the structural integrity of the vehicle is ruined.
Perhaps I'm a bit paranoid. Being a newbie, I'm not certain how or how easily this problem is dealt with.
Any horror stories anyone ever hear of what happens once the tunnel gives way?
Why are there only chassis for the Manx?
(Tube or some other steel)
Any suggestions? What if my tunnel is rotten? Better to fix the tunnel before adding a role cage? Suggestions please. |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
Dale M.
Samba Member
Joined: April 12, 2006
Posts: 20379
Location: Just a tiny bit west of Yosemite Valley
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Tunnel is part of backbone structure of car... Eliminated?... Not unless you want to build all tube frame and just place body on it.... If its weakened through rust and corrosion it should probably be replaced or at least reinforced...
Dale
_________________
“Fear The Government That Wants To Take Your Guns" - Thomas Jefferson.
"Kellison Sand Piper Roadster" For Street & Show.
"Joe Pody Sandrover" Buggy with 2180 for Autocross (Sold)
============================================================
All suggestions and advice are purely my own opinion. You are free to ignore them if you wish ... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
corradolvr
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 297
Location: WA
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 8:35 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
| Dale M. wrote: |
Tunnel is part of backbone structure of car... Eliminated?... Not unless you want to build all tube frame and just place body on it.... If its weakened through rust and corrosion it should probably be replaced or at least reinforced...
Dale |
Yes.
_________________
My Build Post
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:31 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Post a picture of the tunnel rust so we know what you're up against.
_________________
My Build: '69 Baja - Dark Earth Version
~I'm almost done. I just lack finishing up.~  |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
no1clyde
Samba Member
Joined: August 27, 2013
Posts: 365
Location: Elko Nv.
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 9:35 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
I am not sure what to suggest to you but what you seem to want can be done but not easy and if you don't do it your self it will cost a pretty penny the way I see it. I have spent 3 years building my car but I had some fab skills to start with and a lot of tools too like welder,tube bender, metal cutting band saw and lathe and know how to use them. Since you don't seem to have the ability to do these things something like a Crumco would be a good idea.
This my car but remember it is home made and not something you can buy but shows you it can be done.
The pan as I have built it.
And the car as it is with the body on it.
I think maybe you should buy a driving sort of stock Baja and drive it and then mod it to what you want.
Good luck
Ed |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fenix
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2016
Posts: 468
Location: St Louis
|
| Posted: Fri Sep 29, 2017 11:17 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
| greggl4321 wrote: |
Can the tunnel be replaced or reinforced or will something work as a substitute?
Do some roll cages connect both front and rear? (And everything else for that matter) making it so the integrity of the tunnel doesn't matter?
It seems the tunnel Is the weakest link. It collects moisture and rusts -- the car depends on it
I'm really worried about it. Im worried my car will rot away.
I'm wondering if there is a way to replace it?
I think this is what I've been trying to say. Can the tunnel be reinforced or replaced?
I'd like to have everything tied together so the darn'ed tunnel can rot away. I'd like to replace the tunnel with something that isn't prone to rust.
I'm not sure how much of a problem the tunnels are, they seem to be an issue. Once rust sets in the structural integrity of the vehicle is ruined.
Perhaps I'm a bit paranoid. Being a newbie, I'm not certain how or how easily this problem is dealt with.
Any horror stories anyone ever hear of what happens once the tunnel gives way?
Why are there only chassis for the Manx?
(Tube or some other steel)
Any suggestions? What if my tunnel is rotten? Better to fix the tunnel before adding a role cage? Suggestions please. |
With all the redundant questions we all have a few questions too. How much experience do you have with Cars in general? Second with antique cars? Third with performance modified cars? Fourth did you actually buy a Baja yet?
My suspicion was raised when I found your thread thinking a Baja Beetle would be a more economical and reliable mode of daily than a 2010 Civic. Thinking the cost of maintenance, parts, and repairs would be less costly than a Civic...You do realize the base model Civic has been on of the top 5 most economical to own cars for the last 25 years right?. Do you also realize in general when adding high-performance items to your car especially the engine and drive train the overall reliability and ease of maintenance goes down right? I know, I have been building and customizing street cars since I was 16. Everything from a twin-turbo rotary engine in an 84 EXP, 400 MPFI in an 86 S10, a built 406 ci powered 86 Trans Am, 2003 SRT 10 motor in a 2003 quadcab 4x4, 1930 for A with a 428 cobra jet.
What are you hoping to hear? Yes you can cut the tunnel out and replace it with plastic, since all metal corrodes and rots given enough time. Yes it is possible, several companies have composite materials they sell to several F1 and E1 teams to replace aluminum and steel components in their chassis and suspension components. In fact there is an E1 car being tested with no metal in the chassis or suspension. But the material is expensive and in most cases hand layup is required. To give you an idea, the composite A-arm on my desk costs just shy of $4500, just in raw material cost and man power to fabricate.
You have essentially asked this same question on 4 different threads but fail to accept what you have been told.
The answer is Yes you can replace the Pan and Tunnel since you feel these are the week points, even hinting it is a design flaw. If that were the case why is it essentially the beginning of the Uni-body construction that all general purpose vehicles produced in the last 25 years have. And basically the exact concept all the major exotics use now, just in either aluminum or carbon fiber.
Several of us even pointed you to the individual to talk to about fabricating a fully tubed Baja Frame already setup to accept the long travel A-Arm front and included the Long-Travel rear trailing arms. But the frame alone is 2x your $3500 budget.
Custom cars are not cheep, not economical, and you never make you money back unless you set out to flip the car from the first place. My TA had over $20K in it. I drove it for 4 years as my daily back in college, all said and done it had another 8K-10K in general maintenance and repairs in those 4 years. Not to mention the added cost of running 12 gallons of 92 octane+2 gallons of Race Blue. I sold it in 1999 for a whole $9000, and it still ran and would easily peg the 160mph speedo before you shifted out of 4th.
Custom cars are just hot wheels for Big Kids, and if you don't know how to wrench on them, they are even more expensive. For me that is the engines, never have figured them out. Not for lack of trying either. But since I am an artist and handy with an airbrush I used to trade paint work for engine work.
Good luck on your build if you start one. My advice would be start a single build thread and listen to the advice on this site. Especially Dale M and Dusty, they have been a great resource for me over the last year. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:04 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Bump,
I got this superstitious feeling to never return here to post, but everything should be okay right?
Anyways, I found what I was after. Here it is below:
My question is this:
Do these boxed pieces of metal make the car more rigid/strong, almost as a roll cage?
Do these pieces strengthen the frame to the point where the tunnel could rot through, without affecting the structural integrity of the vehicle?
Where can one find replacement or aftermarket tunnels?
Do these boxed tubes act as a frame, creating roll cage like rigidity, to the point where the main tunnel isn't such a big deal?
The tunnels are known to get rusty (or was it the heater channels?) Because of condensation. Replacing them, or making a frame around it ( or both) seems like a good idea for people who want to easily work on their vw and not have to worry about the heater channels or tunnels going bad in a "marine environment" it'd also provide a steadier foundation for the rest of the car without having to do a roll cage, it seems. I mean one wouldn't have to check for frame rot as often.
What are some thoughts, questions, concerns on the above ideas?
Anything additional? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
dirtkeeper
Samba Member
Joined: February 19, 2008
Posts: 3200
Location: Left of everywhere
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:19 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
That last picture is of a lift kit that goes between the body and the pan. Yah it probably makes things stronger and can be tied to your roll cage if you have one. Mine is. But the body and heater channels still can't be rusted thru or the will fall off or break away from the pan/lift kit.
As far as the center tunnel?? That is the strongest and main structural part of the car. Sure it can be strengthened or added to but is already as strong as it gets and if it has major enough rust or rot that you think it's going to break than I would find a new pan to work with . Or build yourself a full on custom cage and frame and forget about working with any old parts or pans. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
heywebonya
Samba Member
Joined: July 08, 2010
Posts: 823
Location: Portage, MI
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:37 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Greg, please buy a buggy rather than engaging in "what if?" discussions. Since you clearly have never turned a wrench or been in a VW, quit starting new threads.
Kind regards, Jeff
_________________
If I knew what I was doing; I wouldn't be building a buggy! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
corradolvr
Samba Member
Joined: August 18, 2008
Posts: 297
Location: WA
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:37 am Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
He's right. I think work with what you have. If I remember correctly, you have a pretty small budget. Use what you have and then go back and upgrade when you break something. This will keep you from having to drop a ton of cash all at once. I had this problem when I started my car. I felt like I needed to have all the parts and pieces I wanted before I started work. The tunnel is really the backbone of the pan, and unless you plan on doing a full frame/cage, where the suspension is integrated, I'd leave it alone. No reason to remove it even if its a bit rusted. It's still probably really strong. Just as an aside, I think you'll get some strengthening from what you've shown, but probably not much torsional rigidity on the longitudinal axis.
_________________
My Build Post
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3...highlight= |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
mkparker
Samba Member
Joined: October 12, 2004
Posts: 332
Location: Sherman, Tx
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
OK, I'll give it a shot.
Do these boxed pieces of metal make the car more rigid/strong, almost as a roll cage?
No
Do these pieces strengthen the frame to the point where the tunnel could rot through, without affecting the structural integrity of the vehicle?
No
Where can one find replacement or aftermarket tunnels?
There are thousands of good used tunnels out there in the world.
No one manufactures a replacement tunnel because no one, but you,
would ever buy one. They rarely EVER rust out. Quit worrying about
the tunnel.
Do these boxed tubes act as a frame, creating roll cage like rigidity, to the point where the main tunnel isn't such a big deal?
Same question 3 times! I can see why the guys are tired of you!
The items you have pictured are all body lifts. They are designed to lift a Bug body or a Buggy body up approximately 3", usually for tire/ground clearance. You will notice that all of your pics still have the "dreaded" tunnel...
BECAUSE IT'S THE STRONGEST PART OF THE CHASSIS!
The tunnels are known to get rusty (or was it the heater channels?) Because of condensation. Replacing them, or making a frame around it ( or both) seems like a good idea for people who want to easily work on their vw and not have to worry about the heater channels or tunnels going bad in a "marine environment" it'd also provide a steadier foundation for the rest of the car without having to do a roll cage, it seems. I mean one wouldn't have to check for frame rot as often.
Heater channels are part of the body and are know to get rusty, yes.
The tunnel is the backbone of the chassis an is made of MUCH thicker steel.
It is definitely possible for a tunnel to rust through, therefore inspecting a tunnel prior to purchase is always a good idea. When you get your new tunnel there are numerous rust inhibitor products available to minimize future rust issues.
_________________
Michael
Pit Boy 6163 Spec Trophy Truck |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:48 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Assuming the tunnel did rust through and a roll cage is off the list of options is the hobby then dead? What'd people need to do to replace the tunnel?
hat other parts do no exist in the aftermarket? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:59 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
| greggl4321 wrote: |
Assuming the tunnel did rust through and a roll cage is off the list of options is the hobby then dead? What'd people need to do to replace the tunnel?
hat other parts do no exist in the aftermarket? |
Then you would just get another pan by buying an inexpensive parts car and making one good car out of two.
_________________
My Build: '69 Baja - Dark Earth Version
~I'm almost done. I just lack finishing up.~ |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
greggl4321
Samba Member
Joined: May 30, 2017
Posts: 276
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:27 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Hoping to drive a vw Baja for a really long time. Hopefully more than 20+ years.
I'm worried that I wouldnt be able to get a replacement tunnel (pan?)
If I'm going to have the body off Might as well make the tunnel new/innovated out of tubes or something?
Are there any half chassis things instead of full roll cage chassis? -- This way the body can easily be removed and the frame is a half tube chassis that'll eliminate the tunnel?
Would a thick tube the diameter of the tunnel work as a tunnel?
Still hoping to find information regarding the tunnel, and if there is perhaps an easy tube chassis that retains the vw body, pans, but loses the tunnel.
Heck, I may end up in the business of making replacement tunnels...
Thank you all for the information. Much appreciated. I need to get a job between now and then, but wanting to have it all planned out. Probably try to get a car with IRS and front king link suspension. Again, much thanks |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:46 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
_________________
My Build: '69 Baja - Dark Earth Version
~I'm almost done. I just lack finishing up.~
Last edited by Dark Earth on Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:39 pm; edited 1 time in total |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
SamT
Samba Member
Joined: April 17, 2009
Posts: 1761
Location: Rule, Tx
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:22 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Some 12" well casing could easily replace the Tunnel. You could have it ceramic coated inside like they do exhaust pipes for the corrosion prevention. They sit in wet dirt for like 50 years before rotting with no coating at all.
_________________
Rides:
300HP 900lb turbo VW rail 18/15 travel
Never ending jeep/rzr hybrid build!
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=546712 |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
Fenix
Samba Member
Joined: October 05, 2016
Posts: 468
Location: St Louis
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 8:41 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Drive a 50 yr old vehicle for another 20 yrs....
...between the 4 threads we have given you all the options available. Replace the pan with the pan from another parts car. Fabricate a new pan/chassis. Fabricate a new pan/tunnel. Fabricate a new tube frame/cage. Have an actual chassis/frame builder build you a frame/cage. Or just buy the best Baja you can afford and drive it till it breaks, fix it, rinse and repeat.
Build your own tunnel, do you have the expertise and tools required? Do you think your $3000 budget will buy a reliably running car, and the materials to fabricate a new tunnel and rust proof it? Since I doubt you have the facility to do it yourself, A quality rebuild on the engine and transaxle will take most of that. I'm not trying to be harsh, just honest about the cost and some real misconceptions you have about maintaining new verses antique vehicles.
If you want a Baja buy one as a toy/hobby, drive it till it dies. Then if you enjoy it rebuild it to the level of "want" that you can afford.
You are a prime example of why I stoped mentoring senior thesis projects...the soon to be grads would keep asking the same question over and over until they got the answer they wanted. Could not fathom that they might be wrong or over thinking. Personally I sense major other issues that need worked out before putting finances, energy, time, and frustration into restoring a 50 yr old car.
Based on what comes off as a complete lack of mechanical and automotive aptitude...keep the civic! Do not sell it or you will have nothing to sleep in, or drive. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
YDBD
Samba Member
Joined: February 25, 2017
Posts: 891
Location: Bavaria, Germany
|
| Posted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 11:10 pm Post subject: Re: Eliminating the Tunnel |
|
|
Until you show pictures of this nefarious tunnel:
Do not try to replace the tunnel. I have never seen one rusted so bad that it is falling apart or even flaking or bulbous rust.
I currently have a '56 pan that has been on many salt water beaches from California, Hawaii and Okinawa that was cut and welded before 1969. It sat in our yard from '76 until '98 in Santa Cruz CA and it is not rusted enough to show any threatening structural problems and it passes German TüV every year.
The tunnel is not just sheet metal, they are treated and very f'ing hard. I have broken many drill bits and had to have a new # stamped in the tunnel for Japan registration and the hardened steel stamps wouldn't put a mark on the tunnel with out a 2Kg hammer and several blows.
Let's see pics...or don't ask again what to replace the tunnel with.
_________________
'56 pan Dune Buggy since '69
don't live in the past...but when I did:
'67 bug
'64 baja
'60 dune buggy
'73 Personenkraftwagen Type 182 "Thing" |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
|
