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70Crew
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 6:36 am    Post subject: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

When I look for vehicle-specific (1970 VW Type 2 Transporter) Echlin points on the NAPA website I get 4 exact matches:

https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?text=points&a...ation=true

ECH CS312
ECH CS312P
ECH CS313
ECH CS313P

I know the "P" denotes vented points. I would have thought those to be a superior design, all things equal, and therefore, more expensive. However, the non-vented style is actually a bit more.

The CS313 style is listed as fitting a 211-905-205R distributor, while the other one doesn't reference a distributor model at all. I am running a stock 113-905-205T distributor, and I don't even see a 205R listed on a chart of stock models. The CSR at the local NAPA store couldn't tell me which one I should be using. Any wisdom or direct experience?
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:33 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

70Crew wrote:
When I look for vehicle-specific (1970 VW Type 2 Transporter) Echlin points on the NAPA website I get 4 exact matches:

https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?text=points&a...ation=true

ECH CS312
ECH CS312P
ECH CS313
ECH CS313P

I know the "P" denotes vented points. I would have thought those to be a superior design, all things equal, and therefore, more expensive. However, the non-vented style is actually a bit more.

The CS313 style is listed as fitting a 211-905-205R distributor, while the other one doesn't reference a distributor model at all. I am running a stock 113-905-205T distributor, and I don't even see a 205R listed on a chart of stock models. The CSR at the local NAPA store couldn't tell me which one I should be using. Any wisdom or direct experience?


Did you read the link in thread above above this one?

If you click on each one of those point sets in your link and then scroll down and click specifications.....then scroll down and click "buyers guide".....the "312" models of P and non "P" points sets are listed as type 1 based engines.....beetle, type 3 and type 2 through 1970.

The "313" Models....bot P and non-P...lists for type 4, 411/412 through 1974, 914 through 1976 and type 2 through 1979.

Whatever you get....get a "P" series. For yours....a 1970 model....get the CS313-P.

In items this small and simple......even though the improvements between the P and non P are significant performance wise.....the cost bas nothing to do with that. It does not really cost any more to make one or the other. One will be cheaper if they sell more.....and/or one could be cheaper if its made with newer faster equipment.....or made with older equipment that has been paid off....or made in a plant with cheaper labor or shorter shipping. Ray
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:35 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

Your other option is to search for the NOS German made NOS points for that distributor. I often see them for sell for less than $10 dollars per set.

They are excellent.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 7:42 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

Thanks Ray.... as my high school shop teacher was fond of saying, "hands in high gear, brain in reverse". And thanks for the NOS tip Bill.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

Hey Chris,

I've been loving the CS312 points from Echlin/Napa. These are the correct points for the 205T that you have.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetai...0460371711

I did not know what the other option was, so I also went for the "most expensive" trick, but they've lived a LONG time with no complains.

Ray, could you explain the difference between vented and non-vented points?

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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:30 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
Hey Chris,

I've been loving the CS312 points from Echlin/Napa. These are the correct points for the 205T that you have.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetai...0460371711

I did not know what the other option was, so I also went for the "most expensive" trick, but they've lived a LONG time with no complains.

Ray, could you explain the difference between vented and non-vented points?

Robbie


Vented points have a hole in the stationary contact. This lets the surface cool a bit more readily as the points cycle reducing pitting. I have been running vented points for a long time on any old rig I can get them for.

For some designs the stationary contact may have slots instead of a hole, but I don't remember seeing any classic VW points of this design.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

70Crew wrote:
When I look for vehicle-specific (1970 VW Type 2 Transporter)

Should use 01 013.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:55 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

asiab3 wrote:
Hey Chris,

I've been loving the CS312 points from Echlin/Napa. These are the correct points for the 205T that you have.

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetai...0460371711

I did not know what the other option was, so I also went for the "most expensive" trick, but they've lived a LONG time with no complains.

Ray, could you explain the difference between vented and non-vented points?

Robbie


As Wildthings noted....the electrodes run cooler. Also...even more important....because there is no center on the fixed electrode....that "peak" of carbonized metal cannot develop and cause a change in gap and dwell.

The vented points stay flat and even for far longer than non-vented points.

Because of the missing center in the vented, fixed electrode they make them a good deal larger in diameter which makes the electrode pair stiffer and more stable and they stay parallel longer. Here are some visual differences from the other thread:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Electrode diameter: 0.210"

Vented electrode

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Electrode diameter: 0.186"

Ray
Non-vented electrode
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:11 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

I'm curious which brands of points had these holes in the points face?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 6:18 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
I'm curious which brands of points had these holes in the points face?


Several over the years, you needed to specify ventilated points when buying. Presently I am pretty sure ventilated Echlins can be had but am not sure about others.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:23 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
I'm curious which brands of points had these holes in the points face?


Wink ...read that thread I posted a link to.

The original brand was SMP....Standard Motor Products. This companies main ignition points products way back when were "Blue Streak" points. The blue streaks had ventilated electrodes.
Like every ignition points manufacturer....SMP made several levels of of points. They also made points for other companies to sell under private label names.....NAPA/Echlin and NAPA/Niehof are big ones....there was or has been some back and forth with Borg Warner products.

There was at least one other series of points other than "Blue Streak" series that SMP sold under their own name that had ventilated points. These were the "P" series. Under the SMP parts line the "P" series had a whitish beige, rigeted points arm body with a copper or steel connector arm for the moving electrode, a ventilated fixed electrode and a few other differences.

Under the Echlin name the "P" series ...and in the current NAPA line.....the moving points body was metal and appeared to be taken from the borg Warner line but has a better pivot bearing.

From this earlier link to NAPA'S catalog.....any of the part numbers with the last letter code in the part # being a "P"......have the vented electrode and also list it in the details.

https://www.napaonline.com/en/search?text=points&a...ation=true

The ECH CS313P and the ECH CS312P.....both have vented fixed points.

EDIT: to add to this....Rockauto shows several sets of SMP points

The standard motor products GB 4173PT.....which is the "T" series ...which is their economy version which are still better than Bosch. I believe the "T" series detail may not have the extra copper ground spring and may or may not have the vented electrode.

They also show the AC Delco D119........which appears to be the SMP T or P series.

They show the SMP GB 4173P which is the "P" series for SMP.....but lists it as non-vented....which may or may not be right......but.....it is not 100% clear whether the SMP "P" was/meant the same as NAPA/Echlin P series.



Ray


Last edited by raygreenwood on Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:39 am; edited 1 time in total
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:37 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

my understanding is that the hd vented points are pretty much all old stock. I've picked up standard motor parts versions whenever they came up on Ebay. American made vented points and quality capacitors are pretty much a thing of the past. The only versions that are out there now coming down the supply line seem to be the non-vented regular points. Better grab some spares of the vented ones while you can if that is what you want to run. These cars are 40 - 50 years old.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 7:50 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

SGKent wrote:
my understanding is that the hd vented points are pretty much all old stock. I've picked up standard motor parts versions whenever they came up on Ebay. American made vented points and quality capacitors are pretty much a thing of the past. The only versions that are out there now coming down the supply line seem to be the non-vented regular points. Better grab some spares of the vented ones while you can if that is what you want to run. These cars are 40 - 50 years old.


In the BlueStreak SMP brand for sure.

You may be right but its just not clear yet whether what NAPA is selling under the Echlin brand as "P" series ....which are vented.....is just selling from old stock or not.

As noted.....you have to be careful about detail of the part number and brand. SMP.....sells/sold virtually identical points under T....econo and no vent...and P....mid level vented....and XP....which are BlueStreak....vented and NLA unless NOS.

NAPA is listing "P" series as vented (the 312P and 313P). Also NAPA has a line called their MPE line (mileage plus line).....that shows some variations of these SMP points.

Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 8:13 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

Hum... thanks for the link Ray.

I've never run vented points before and honestly haven't had issues with the NOS Bosch points. They seem to last 20-30k miles easily.

Wildthings noted he runs the vented points. Besides what's been mentioned already about the benefits of these vented points, what else is a compelling reason to use them?
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 10:06 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:
Hum... thanks for the link Ray.

I've never run vented points before and honestly haven't had issues with the NOS Bosch points. They seem to last 20-30k miles easily.

Wildthings noted he runs the vented points. Besides what's been mentioned already about the benefits of these vented points, what else is a compelling reason to use them?


Sorry...I think I forgot to post the link ...in this thread. There are currently two threads running simultaneously in the bay window forum about NAPA points.

https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=659700&highlight=blue+streak

The differences are in this thread.

Its not "JUST" the vented electrode. While that is a great feature....even on the non-ventilated points.....the SMP/NAPA-Echlin points in the T and P series have a lot of features and are in general a much higher level of build quality.

Among the differences that make a difference:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


On the better P series you can find that there is a separate copper strip that is wrapped around the spring either as better conductor or a better heat sink or both. These are on blue streaks in the picture but you can see them on the outside of the P series spring leaf in the NAPA pictures.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


You can see the copper strip on the outside of this NAPA/SMP points set.

The swaging on the main pivot pin is heavier on the SMP/NAPA points.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The wire gauge is heavier and the crimping is better and heavier

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The bushing area that is part of the pivot pin that supports the moving points arm is wider on the SMP/NAPA points so there is less chance of lateral misalignment.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

The Bosch has this feature as well but Wells and Borg Warner and cheap point do not.

Also the bushing in the SMP/NAPA "P" series points...or it may be "T"...worth looking....is grass on brass and not brass on plastic.

The rubbing block material is excellent on these points so you do not have to worry about the cracking issue.

In general...Bosch points always work. It has not been an issue where the design was a problem. Its not like you pull them out of the box and they dont work and fail instantly......except those points made the range of time where the rubbing block was made of the wrong material and they had a habit of snapping off......you may have missed that era.

But you note you have never had an issue....and I find that hard to believe.

Because....I doubt you missed the era of misaligned electrodes and moving electrodes that had a high point in the center from being fusion welded on at too high of a temperature. You still find that issue here and there.

The first of those two issues started for me in the late 80's IIRC. Needed points...went to my excellent well stocked foreign parts house in OKC. Counter guy plucks a blister pack off the "sheet" of blister packs under the Bosch sign hanging behind the counter....and I take them to the parking lot to install them..... Very Happy damn I miss those days!

It wont time or set dwell correctly. I drive it around the block...bring it back and pull out the points. They have a nasty crescent moon shaped burn on one edge. I pull them out and look at them from on end...and the fixed and flexible electrodes are only touching on one edge.

I take them back inside the store...and if I had not known the counter guy who KNEW I had been working on VW's for years...it might have been an issue we never got to the bottom of. He pulls another blister pack off the sheet...and crack it open right there...and....same damn thing.

He opened about 6 of them...all some variation of bent fixed electrode or twisted pivot arm. He pulled the whole sheet down.

He reached in a bin and pulled out a sheet of the tiger striped 009 points...all of those were perfect. He gave me that set and no charge for the price difference.

Months later in almost a repeat of that....I found Bosch points when working on someone else car...that had the high spot issue. Took them back to the same shop...found a whole sheet with that issue.

This shop quit selling the standard Bosch points and oknly sold the tiger stripe points for a while. Those were sometimes hard to get in quantity so he started selling Blue streak and SMP as well.

The Bluestreak and SMP points are just heavier duty and had better quality control than what we were getting with Bosch. Ray
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 11:46 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

I have a box of blister pack Bosch points for 71-79' distributors made in Germany in the 70's. I compared them to a set I bought brand new this year. They are not even close to the same quality. The points faces don't line up on the new points and require bending the fixed arm so they align correctly.

I also ran the Bosch points with the craptastic white rubbing block that others said too often snapped off. I never had that failure though I always kept the points cam and both sides of the points rubbing block well greased.

Many speculated that they failed on distributors that never enjoyed greasing of the points cam or those points blocks.

Either way, I try and avoid 'new' Bosch points and condensers now.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

wcfvw69 wrote:

Many speculated that they failed on distributors that never enjoyed greasing of the points cam or those points blocks.


No speculation to it, I had a set fail at maybe 4000 miles that was lubed as well as any I have ever owned. Some people are just looking for excuses to cover for Bosch having turned to the dark side. Sorry too many failures of Bosch junk over the last dozen years for me. I don't like sitting (or worse my daughters or wife sitting) on the side of the road and paying big bucks (okay AAA paid) for a tow because Bosch saved 3 cents on a part.
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2017 1:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

Wildthings wrote:
wcfvw69 wrote:

Many speculated that they failed on distributors that never enjoyed greasing of the points cam or those points blocks.


Sorry too many failures of Bosch junk over the last dozen years for me. I don't like sitting on the side of the road (or worse my daughters or wife sitting) and paying big bucks (okay AAA paid) for a tow because Bosch saved 3 cents on a part.


I don't disagree at all that Bosch has in failed quality control 101 with the parts for our VW's the past 20 years.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2017 11:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

I let go of some spare parts if anyone is interested.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:14 am    Post subject: Re: Which Echlin points for 1970 bus? Reply with quote

I've had points with a similar rubbing block design come out of a vintage genuine VW parts box.
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