Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Autostick issues and options
Page: 1, 2  Next
Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
eviloval
Samba Member


Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 200

eviloval is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 11:44 am    Post subject: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

I purchased a 70 Autostick that looks like someone who hasn't had one before decided to mess with. The more I tear into this thing the more I find wrong with this car. Here's what I've found so far:

-The engine is a rebuilt 1600 dual port....which I believe this car came with a single port engine. Engine case has no numbers on it so its an aftermarket case.
-Wiring above the transmission was butchered and spliced countless times.
-Wrong carb and distributor (both aftermarket).
-Control Valve has a broken off connector.
-Various small things in the engine are a mess.
-Ignition switch had cut wires for some wired reason.
-Someone painted the aircleaner and ATF tank a bright orange.
-Brake lines are cheap, rusting aftermarket crap.
-Shifter wire was cut, then cut again, and again and then poorly put back together.
-One of the heads on this motor is stamped "GEX"....the other isn't
-When I started the engine the fuel pump leaked like crazy (and it looks new).

So, far I've remade the wire harness above the transmission using wiring from my rusted 70 (that this car replaces). And, I'm in the process of doing a repaint of the pans since there isn't a single hole in them (but lots of surface rust). I'm slowly working my way towards the engine. It looks like this engine has very low miles on it. But, there are problems. I will more than likely pull the engine out so that I can assess everything and clean up the motor and engine bay.

Sorry for the long winded story. I plan to keep this car an autostick till I get to a point that I just can't stand dealing with it. I understand I have to undo what the PO has done...and that may get me to my breaking point faster. That said here's my list of questions:

*Since the carb, distributor and fuel pump are wrong or leaking. I was think of multiple options. I could tap the missing port on the carb for the control valve. I can buy a carb that I saw on Craigslist that appears to be an AS carb and send it out for a rebuild (its a bocar carb...but it has a twin set of vac ports). Obviously I can get the right distributor or run it till I get a better one...its a SVDA...probably from the original motor.

Or, I can change everything right here. I've got a set of dual 40IDF's setup for a 1600 engine (this is from my 70 rust bucket) and I've got a fuel injection setup from a 79 CA beetle. If I use the 40IDF's I know the ATF filler and control valve needs to move to clear the carb. Both are doable....but I've only found 1 person who's attempted to do it (used search function here). Then there's a matter of vacuum signal to the control valve to deal with.

I've also read that 75 had an autostick and FI. I'd rather go this route since nothing moves (well maybe) and its still factory (somewhat). I'd use the factory center section/throttle body with either CB's, Mexi-bugs or factory endcasings for the injectors. Megasquirt would be the brain for it and I'd want to go with a crank trigger for the distributor. I have a feeling the control valve needs to move for the injectors. Mind you these are parts I have so I'm not running out and getting parts here. Is there any pics of a 75 FI autostick anywhere so I can compare???? The CA center section has a giant port in it...and that looks like the same size found in the carb'd center section. I'd just have to figure out the small one for the control valve. It appears I can get away from using a distributor and going crank trigger since I can program advance....any reason why this wouldn't work?

*Now, the exhaust. I'm not a fan of the original mufflers. And this one has an aftermarket exhaust on it anyways. I'd like to use a quality aftermarket exhaust and was looking at a Vintage Speed setup that'll work with the stock heater boxes. Has anyone done this or in the process of doing this?

*GEX head....is this motor doomed? I've heard and read enough stories here that make me want to remove this head now! I've got a set of brand new VW stock heads and could easily slap those on while the motor is out.

I'm sure I'm going to be flamed here and told countless times to ditch the AS and go 4 speed now and not waste the time. I'm not building a rocket ship here and I'm ok with a sluggish car. I've already have a 4 speed beetle that is too fast as it stands. This one is meant for relaxing drives here and there and occasionally driven to work (during rush hour). If you've ever driven rush hour in CA you know its stop and go. A stage 2 clutch isn't fun here....and neither is moving 3 feet and stopping....just to repeat for the next hour. Now, an AS.....throw it in low and that's all you need to do. Also, it would be a car my wife could drive (she cannot drive a stick to save her life). And, she looks forward to doing so with this car. And, while I can understand keeping things stock....my issue is that stock parts are hard to find and most that I do need work to be made correct.

Any good help on this would be greatly appreciated. I'm sort of creating this topic not only to get information on this part....but I have an idea that I'm going to be asking for help alot to undo whats been done to this car.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eviloval
Samba Member


Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 200

eviloval is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 4:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

Alright....it turns out dual 2-barrel carbs are doable with some mods. These are not my pics....some searching on this site found these:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Control valve relocated

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

ATF tank relocated

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Vacuum lines for control valve

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Finished engine bay....looks clean and pretty hard to tell its an Autostick[/img]
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
wcfvw69
Samba Purist


Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 10549
Location: Arizona
wcfvw69 is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Oct 07, 2017 5:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

An autostick distributor is much like a heavy bus distributor. It has a totally different advance curve than a bug distributor or a mechanical only. The autostick distributors curve comes in around 2200 while the bugs come in around 1500. I drove a 70' bay bus with a bug distributor. It was quickly clear that it had the wrong advance in it for that heavy bus. When I restored the correct bus distributor, it drove amazing.

You can buy a restored and correct German 34-3 carb (assuming this engine is dual port) from Tim at volkzbitz.com

I restore those autostick distributors and have an SVDA autostick distributor or a DVDA autostick distributor in stock.
_________________
Bill

**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**

**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**

My 1970 bus refresh thread- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598191

1970 Westfalia Bus
1969 Convertible Bug
1967 Standard Bug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 6395
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:30 am    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

Forget about the dual carbs. It's not worth the hassle and won't make enough of a difference to justify the extra work. AS previously mentioned if you are planning on keeping the existing dual port 1600, just get a 34 PICT 3 from volkzbitz just make sure it is one modded for autostick use.

What is the part number on your distributor? If it's an original autsotick distributor I'd wait to see how it runs with a new carb first before deciding it needs to be replaced.

Transmission wiring: I'm not sure what all has been cut, spliced etc-- pictures would help (as would pics of the engine bay.) I will tell you that starting around 1972, VW used a different autostick tranny wiring harness. The early autostick cars used two ATF temperature switches on the transmission (one for Drive 1 gear and one for Drive 2.) The wiring from these was routed to a temp sender switch, also on the transmission housing, and from there up to the ATF warning light on the dash. So for these early autosticks you'd have a wiring harness that had three different plugs for those temperature/ sender switches (I think they are all on the passenger side of the transmission), plus the plug for the neutral safety switch on the other (driver's) side of the transmission. But starting around 1972 or whenever, VW realized that there was no need for the "Drive 1" temperature warning switch- its gear ratio was low enough where ATF getting too hot was not an issue. So they dropped the temp switch for Drive 1 and the sender switch, and just kept the Drive 2 temp switch wired straight to the ATF light on the dash. So, if someone replaced the early 70 autostick with a later transmission but kept the harness, you'll have loose wiring plug ends dangling, and maybe some weird splices, etc. (Also starting around the same time, for some reason VW decided to switch from powering the control valve straight off the ignition coil to powering it off a fuse in the fuse box up front, which meant an extra wire going all the way from the front of the car through the main harness, out into the tranny harness, and then into the engine bay and over to the control valve.) All that can be remedied pretty easily just by determining which style autostick tranny you have and then using the correct harness for it.
The control valve with the broken terminal can be easily remedied too- just solder the ground terminal directly to it or solder a new spade on there or whatever.

I am glad to hear you are wanting to keep this an autostick. BTW don't ever use Low in normal driving. Just use Drive 1 up to about 40 mph or so and then Drive 2 from there. Low is only supposed to be used for extraordinarily heavy engine loads, like climbing a ridiculously steep hill, or for towing.
_________________
1969 autostick sedan, owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eviloval
Samba Member


Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 200

eviloval is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

wcfvw69: What I've read so far has got me to conclude the same thing. There is a right and wrong distributor for an autostick. I have seen your ads and you not only restore distributors but fuel pumps (for generator equipped cars). Do you restore german fuel pumps for alternator equipped cars? I'm definitely looking at the DVDA you've listed.

sb001: I'm looking at options for the car since its more of a pleasure type vehicle. The dual carbs are nice but there are a few issues I run into to go that route. Main one being access to the spark plugs. The pics I found on this site while showing a very clean engine bay...don't really show how much it takes to change the plugs. Its bad enough with a 4-speed car and the easy way around that is with side access panels. But, on an autostick you have 2 tanks on either side that put a damper on that. And while you can drop tanks to get to the access panels....its just one more thing to do to change plugs. And, what posts I've found on VWar.org of people who've gone thru the hassle of the carbs. The one thing that keeps coming back is the car shifts rough due to the wrong vacuum signal to the control valve.

The fuel injection idea is one I'm researching more since they did make a factory autostick with FI. I managed to find 1 pic of a 75....but nothing that tells me how the vacuum lines are routed. Here's the pic:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


I'm going to see if I can get more info thru PM from the owner. I can either go with a DVDA or crank trigger for ignition. I'm leaning more towards the DVDA to simplify this since there is less to mess with. If I use this approach the engine bay will be cleaner than a stock FI car since I won't have the 5th injector nor the smog stuff to contend with.

On the carb'd front....I'm going to look into the rebuilt carb from volkzbitz and get the car running right. I've never driven an autostick so I do need to see how they drive stock before I start bolting stuff on to it (baseline performance). Also, having the parts around even after I decide to go FI makes it easy to switch back if I don't like the result or if I have issues with the computer down the road or if I have to smog it due to CA changing the rules or I move to a different state.

I've found out that a Vintage speed exhaust will fit on an autostick so I've got one ordered up and on its way here. It'll have pre-heat, works with the stock heater boxes and exits right out the factory exhaust cutouts.

In regards to wiring at the transmission....it was just cut at weird spots, spliced back together or just cut with no reason. The transmission is the stock one with (2) temp sensors near the starter (they have a brown boot over them....not like the black boots for the other senders). They cut the power to the neutral safety switch then patched it with a short jumper back to the switch. The CV line was cut and just left there. The harness was just an absolute mess. I did add 2 extra wires to the harness as a secondary if the neutral safety switch goes out while I'm somewhere. I added a straight line to both the starter and control valve that are capped under the seat (both are the correct gauge and yellow). If the switch goes out I just go under the back seat, pull the wiring free from the junctions, switch wires and cap the ones that are no longer in use.

Thank you about what to do about the control valve. I wasn't a 100% sure what to do and was still looking up alternatives. I'll get some pics later today of the engine and a # on the distributor that's there.

In regards to shifting I thought you needed to go thru the gears similar to a stick (read that somewhere....maybe I'm wrong). All the factory manuals in the car said to leave it in 2nd and drive it like an auto.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
wcfvw69
Samba Purist


Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 10549
Location: Arizona
wcfvw69 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 10:08 am    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

If this bug is going to be a pleasure, nice weather VW, stock configuration is the simplest and most low maintenance. It can actually be a bit boring as the only work they need is the 3k valve adjustments, oil changes and checking the timing and dwell. Wink

Tim does great work on his carb restorations/rebuilds. He rebushed my throttle shaft on my German 34-3 and I restored a year correct and matching to the carb DVDA for my bus engine. It runs like a swiss watch.

While I've never had my hands on that new exhaust, you need to double check that it in fact flows enough hot exhaust through the (cleared) carb manifold heat riser tubes. Most aftermarket headers don't and it causes issues, especially when the engine is cold.
_________________
Bill

**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**

**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**

My 1970 bus refresh thread- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598191

1970 Westfalia Bus
1969 Convertible Bug
1967 Standard Bug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 6395
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

Access panels to get to the spark plugs?? If those are there on a 1970 it's been hacked. On my 69 autostick I have always only just gone in through the engine bay like the rest of the world. It's not a problem getting around the control valve hoses and the ATF filler neck with a racthet and short extension.
The autostick has three forward gears, they are typically called "Low," "Drive 1," and "Drive 2." Low is the equivalent of 2nd gear in the 4 speed manual, Drive 1 is the equivalent of 3rd, and Drive 2 is the equivalent of 4th. I am not sure if your manual is saying to keep it in Drive 1 all the time (which is the second forward gear in the autostick) or if it saying to use Drive 2 all the time. Whatever it is saying though, I've never seen any manual that states to use one gear all the time. I have been driving my autostick for going on 40 years, every single person who's ever owned one will tell you to start out in Drive 1, and then shift to Drive 2 anywhere between 35-45 mph for best acceleration and fuel economy.
Here's the autostick section from the 1970 owner's manual. Note that it says typical driving is starting out in Drive (Range) 1, then shift to Drive (Range) 2:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

_________________
1969 autostick sedan, owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eviloval
Samba Member


Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 200

eviloval is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

The access panels where in regards to running dual carbs. They're cut into the quarter panels parallel to the sparkplugs so you can get at them when your running dual carbs. The issue with an autostick is that there's the vac tank on 1 side and the ATF tank on the other that would get in the way of a set of access panels.

I've been researching pretty much where ever I can get any information. I have a bentley manual for general stuff and wire diagrams. But, when it comes to autostick information it lacks alot. Between here, VWar and the internet in general I've gotten alot of information. Part of my issue now is to weed thru what I've collected and figure out what is bogus and what's correct. Hence my confusion about shifting thru the gears. I read somewhere that the manual said this (I don't have a manual so I can't confirm it). There are a few youtube videos that I've seen where the driver sets it in gear and drives the whole time in 1 gear. There are a few others where they shift thru all 3 gears. And, I knew someone in High school who did have one and they left it in 2nd the whole time. It was a dog on acceleration (and initially my reservations from owning one came from). He rebuilt the car and at a point converted it to a stick.

The owner of the FI pic I posted sold the car. So, I'm back to square 1 in regards to vacuum line routing. So, I'm looking at a rebuilt carb, possible distributor change out and a fuel pump before I can really analyze where I need to go next on the motor. 1st order of business is to get the motor running right and get the autostick to move the car. Once I got that to happen I can figure out the right path to get this car a driver.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eviloval
Samba Member


Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 200

eviloval is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 1:14 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

Pics of the engine, control valve and distributor

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


Distributor # is: 022 905 205S. Based on The old volks home this distributor belongs to a 74 CA bus or a 80-83 Vanagon. I don't think its the right one....but if anyone can confirm it I'd appreciated it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
wcfvw69
Samba Purist


Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 10549
Location: Arizona
wcfvw69 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

You're correct on that distributors application. It ramps up at 1600 RPM vs. an autostick that ramps up at 2300.
_________________
Bill

**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**

**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**

My 1970 bus refresh thread- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598191

1970 Westfalia Bus
1969 Convertible Bug
1967 Standard Bug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
volkenstein
Samba Member


Joined: June 26, 2005
Posts: 835
Location: The Land of Oz
volkenstein is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 5:37 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

Eviloval,
You have a 009, and they don't play well with an A-S. I would (personally) get an SVDA from a '74 or '75. Oldvolkshome has the distributor number. It is 043 905 205C IIRC.

You can drill any manual carb to suit the A-S. As sb001 mentioned, a 34 Pict 3 - NOT a H30/31 pict.

That CV solenoid *may* be able to be repaired, OR failing that - solder on some wire and crimp a new spade onto it (the wire). Ugly, but will get you out of trouble.

From your description - you have an older model trans (pre 71). If need be, you can just run one temp switch (High).

Whatever you do, try and keep the engine under 100 hp at the brochure. The 180mm clutch plate is the limiting factor.

Oh yeah - while I remember - with Dual IDF's - how will you get the vac signal from the venturi to the CV? Along with movng all the tanks and lines out of the engine bay. I know it can be done - but have you considered other carb options? Dual ICT's/FRD's? Centremount single?


HTH
Volkenstein
_________________
71 RHD AS Super - "Klaus"...
Wisdom of youth, energy of old age...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger Classifieds Feedback
wcfvw69
Samba Purist


Joined: June 10, 2004
Posts: 10549
Location: Arizona
wcfvw69 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 6:24 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

volkenstein wrote:
Eviloval,
You have a 009, and they don't play well with an A-S. I would (personally) get an SVDA from a '74 or '75. Oldvolkshome has the distributor number. It is 043 905 205C IIRC.


He mentioned already his current distributor Distributor # is: 022 905 205S. and it's not a mechanical only 009. The 043905205C distributor is a DVDA and is used in manual transmission bugs. It's not a good match for an autostick.
_________________
Bill

**Restored German Bosch distributors for sale or I can restore yours**

**Restored German Pierburg fuel pumps for sale or I can restore yours**

My 1970 bus refresh thread- http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=598191

1970 Westfalia Bus
1969 Convertible Bug
1967 Standard Bug
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 6395
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 7:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

eviloval wrote:


Distributor # is: 022 905 205S. Based on The old volks home this distributor belongs to a 74 CA bus or a 80-83 Vanagon. I don't think its the right one....but if anyone can confirm it I'd appreciated it.


You're right it's not the right one-- but personally I'd be interested in seeing how it performs with a 34 PICT 3 carb. Granted I'm not as knowledgeable as others in distributor timing curves, and the correct DVDA autostick distributor for 1970 (which is what I am running) looks like would max out at 28 @ 3900 RPMs (thereby allowing the engine to rev up higher than most) whereas your current distributor looks like it would max out at 24 @ 3400 RPMs. Still-it looks like yours kicks in more advance at a lower RPM... and both use a very similar vacuum canister advance.
If it were me, I would grab an autostick-modded 34 PICT 3 carburetor, slap it on there, time that distributor to 7.5 BTDC and see what happens.
_________________
1969 autostick sedan, owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
volkenstein
Samba Member


Joined: June 26, 2005
Posts: 835
Location: The Land of Oz
volkenstein is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 08, 2017 11:15 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

LOL,
So shaky memory has failed:) . Try and grab this SVDA - 043-905-205A.
It's for a Federal (non-California) '74 autostick.

And I mistook the original distributor......on a roll Rolling Eyes ....


HTH
Volkenstein
_________________
71 RHD AS Super - "Klaus"...
Wisdom of youth, energy of old age...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger Classifieds Feedback
eviloval
Samba Member


Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 200

eviloval is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 12:46 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

I would like to ask maybe not a so simple question. Its more to understand how the car shifts.

There are 2 vacuum lines to the control valve. One is small and the other is rather large. The small one tells the control valve to shift....the large one pulls vacuum from the engine, stores it in the canister on the driver's fender and pulls from there to shift the transmission. Do I have that correct so far?

Now, in my research about the correct carb there are a few sites that mention modifying the non AS carb by drilling a hole into the casting and inserting a nipple for the vacuum line. The carb I have is a good carb...just doesn't have the provision for the AS small line. If I was to use the left vacuum line available on my carb the signal is too strong for the control valve. The result would be that it'll shift hard and would not be able to be adjusted out thru the control valve. Since it appears both lines are parallel the only thing I can think of as to why the signal is too strong is that the size of the nipple is too big....aka....it pulls more vacuum than the correct AS nipple.

So, if I have everything correct above....then the MAIN issue with running dual carbs (besides space) on an AS isn't the large vacuum line....its getting the correct signal for the small line. And considering that the original carb is center mount it is creating a vacuum from all 4 cylinders (well 2 technically). But, its a constant vacuum. To get that constant signal with 2-barrel dual carbs you would have to have tap off both just above the throttle plate....or run a vacuum pump. But, its not only the location of the nipple that's the question...its the size as well so that it doesn't pull too much. The large line can be tapped on to a single intake to draw the needed vacuum.

So, if I decide to go fuel injected using the german throttle body and intake center section it would just be the matter of finding the right nipple/location to plug in the small line for the control valve (I could use my soon to be AS carb as a reference for location/size).

And, if I understand the manual when you go to shift you take your foot off the gas, shift then put your foot back on. If you left your foot on the gas while shifting I'm assuming there would be too much vacuum for the small line and cause a hard shift into the next gear?

Any help on my theory above is appreciated. I'm truly trying to grasp how this setup really works and what does what and when.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
SBD
Samba Member


Joined: October 24, 2012
Posts: 2679
Location: SOUTH DAKOTA
SBD is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 2:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

eviloval wrote:

Now, in my research about the correct carb there are a few sites that mention modifying the non AS carb by drilling a hole into the casting and inserting a nipple for the vacuum line. The carb I have is a good carb...just doesn't have the provision for the AS small line. If I was to use the left vacuum line available on my carb the signal is too strong for the control valve. The result would be that it'll shift hard and would not be able to be adjusted out thru the control valve. Since it appears both lines are parallel the only thing I can think of as to why the signal is too strong is that the size of the nipple is too big....aka....it pulls more vacuum than the correct AS nipple.

I don't think it's quite that simple. I don't have the carb in my hand so I'm just making a guess here, but just because the two nipples are parallel on the outside of the carb doesn't mean they terminate at the same place inside the carb. One could intersect with an inside passage and receive a very different vacuum signal than another that was right next to it on the outside of the carb body.
_________________
"Just $99 down and $64 a month for 36 months buys you a brand new Volkswagen Beetle!"


mark tucker wrote:
I wouldent waste $ or thyme on building a small motor. build it big so it dosent have to work hard.remember it's only as fast as your foot alows it to be unless you build a small turd then it just stinks as it squishes up through your toes when you step on it.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 6395
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

I think you have the functionality of the control valve pretty much correct except for a couple of things. Here's an exploded view of the autostick control
valve:

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.


The MAIN valve (#7 in the diagram), operated by the shifter contacts & control valve solenoid, is what closes off the inflow vacuum from the intake manifold and allow the stored vacuum from the tank under the left rear fender to flow through to the clutch servo diaphragm and "pull" the clutch arm. But the amount of vacuum allowed to flow through to the clutch servo canister is controlled by the secondary "reduction valve" (#19 in the diagram.) It is called a reduction valve because its purpose is to reduce the incoming vacuum signal going to the clutch servo for smooth clutch engagement--if it wasn't there that sucker would slam into gear like crazy. Unlike the main valve, which is operated electrically via the solenoid, the reduction valve itself operates via vacuum pressure (note the diaphragm at the bottom of the housing it sits in.) Therefore it needs a constant vacuum signal which is what is supplied by the smaller vacuum hose from the carburetor and determines the speed at which the reduction valve operates. Then the actual valve position is set via the screw on top of the control valve (#14) to determine the amount of vacuum flowing through to the clutch servo canister and this is what ultimately determines the speed at which the clutch arm disengages.

At least that's my rudimentary understanding of the control valve system.

There are a vast number of threads with folks having that smaller vacuum line from the carb hooked up all sorts of wrong ways and the system still works OK, because you can adjust that reduction valve with the screw on top of the control valve housing. I've seen myriad photos of that line coming off the retard vacuum port on the carb, the air cleaner valve vacuum port on later intake manifolds, the angled EGR valve vacuum port on those carbs with that provision, etc. with no real complaints. So if you are insisting on using dual carbs (which it sounds like you are,) before you go drilling and tapping I would recommend trying to tee off the vacuum signal for that reduction valve from either the air cleaner vacuum port on your intake (if it has that provision) or off of the vacuum advance line from the distributor. It sure can't hurt to try one of these before drilling and tapping the carbs. Just a suggestion.

P.S. You mentioned earlier that your Bentley manual does not realy provide a lot of information on the autostick- which makes me think you must have a later version of the manual. I actually have the entire autostick section from the earlier Bentley manual in pdf format, if you would like me to email it to you. A lot of it concerns the internals of the autostick transmission, which is over my head, but quite a bit of it discusses how the autostick works, troubleshooting, maintenance, etc. Just PM me your email address if you'd like a copy of it.
_________________
1969 autostick sedan, owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
eviloval
Samba Member


Joined: May 03, 2003
Posts: 200

eviloval is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 4:25 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

sb001: Thank you for the info. It is a later bentley manual and I would be really interested in the autostick information you've got....I'll PM you.

I'm not going dual carbs. Its more of understanding why its not a good idea to run duals vs someone telling me that its not worth doing so and not explaining the why.

I'd like to have my ducks in a row before I do something. Especially when I don't have a 100% idea of what I'm doing. And, most of the shops around my area don't have a good understanding of how to get an autostick running perfect ((everyone I've talked to say to convert it to a 4 speed)) So, I'm on my own in regards to getting the car running/shifting correctly.

The plan is to get the correct carb and distributor and get it running and driving right. I'm sure there are other underlying problems I haven't uncovered but I've got to get the car to a stock level to see how it drives. Improvements can go from there....but there isn't going to be much in that category. After its up and running/driving I'll try the distributor its currently got to see if there's any improvement. After that, I may leave it alone for awhile or go fuel injected....but keep the distributor to make the conversion easy. I won't do the fuel injection upgrade until I'm certain that its an improvement and I'm not making a hack.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
sb001
Samba Member


Joined: May 19, 2011
Posts: 6395
Location: NW Arkansas
sb001 is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 6:11 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

Yeah it's unfortunate the vast majority of "mechanics" saying to convert the autostick, cause they're just parroting info when actually most of the time it's just something simple like a vacuum hose, shifter wire, or clutch servo diaphragm that needs to be replaced, contacts in the shifter adjusted, hoses properly connected, etc. I can understand if this were the 80 or 90s and internet was non existent or info was limited, but it's 2017 and info (and parts) are readily available. The samba also ought to be ashamed of how it parroted old fogie mechanic "opinion" for years, there I said it.
Anyways, yes the correct autostick distributor would of course be best but I bet that distributor you have will be OK with your setup, it's still an SVDA so will supply the vacuum advance as soon as you hit the throttle where the autostick needs it most. I'm a penny pincher (mostly out of necessity) so I'd be interested to know how it performs once you get everything set up.
_________________
1969 autostick sedan, owned since new
1600 SP engine
Solex 30 PICT 3 carburetor
Bosch 113905205AE autostick distributor
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
volkenstein
Samba Member


Joined: June 26, 2005
Posts: 835
Location: The Land of Oz
volkenstein is offline 

PostPosted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 7:13 pm    Post subject: Re: Autostick issues and options Reply with quote

sb001,
Does your manual have all the pretty coloured piccies of the A-S system in action? I know 68Autobug has heaps of pics - but with the demise of photobastards - I know my piccies are not appearing.

Eviloval,
The CV connection from the right hand port of your carb just needs to provide 5 in/hg MAX to modulate the vac signal.

As per the diag sb001 posted - some additional info.

The inlet manifold creates vacuum (say 20 in/hg on a good day) that feeds the CV Inlet (just below Part 11). Parts 9,10,11 function so that when the CV/Vac Canister suction becomes equalized the valve (Part 9) gracefully closes off suction. The system stores enough vacuum to do 2-3 shifts.

When you are in cruise etc, you let off the throttle to shift. This creates the vacuum signal feeding the CV. Parts 16 thru 19 & 22 are in play.

Hand goes on the stick to change gears, No 1 fires pushing No 7 OFF it's seal. Vacuum activates the clutch servo diaphragm & you shift. Your hand goes off the stick and you hit the accelerator. Parts No 7, 16 thru 19 & 23 return to normal (SEATED) - Away you go in a new gear.

The only thing I have not been able to define is whether Part No 20 filters air INBOUND, or OUTBOUND (to normalize the clutch servo). People say they can hear a "duck fart" sound when the solenoid is fired.

Going back to my first statement. An incorrect Vac signal/timing is the main cause of "slamming". This is a problem when you start talking dual carbs or whatever. Cobey (Ghia forum) ran an auxiliary vac pump from a dual Kad IIRC) equipped 2276 he worked on. That was years ago. The Vacuum system feed can easily (sort of) be replicated. Drill/Tap/pipe or fitting work.
You can fab or move elsewhere the ATF & VAC tanls etc etc. You are only limited by dollars & ingenuity.

Why 100bhp at the brochure? 180mm clutch plate and the pressure plate isn't the strongest. That build I mentioned with Cobey did not let the clutch last. A fella in the UK turboed (Big Turbo with high boost pressure) his and fried the clutch in 3 burnouts. His plan was to go 4 speed anyway.

Drilling that port in the carb is perfectly fine. Just go for a stepped hole as per the post on vwar.org .


Volkenstein

*speldchekkd a bit
_________________
71 RHD AS Super - "Klaus"...
Wisdom of youth, energy of old age...


Last edited by volkenstein on Tue Oct 10, 2017 11:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Yahoo Messenger Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Beetle - Late Model/Super - 1968-up All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2  Next
Page 1 of 2

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2016, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB