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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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 Posted: Tue Oct 10, 2017 8:26 pm Post subject: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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Hi folks.
I'm in the middle of a 50º ABA swap using the stock engine on a KEP adaptor, diesel pan etc.
Someone has likely done this already, but its one of those things I've had on my mind for some years, wondering if it would work. Please forgive the ridiculous fasteners; couldn't find a proper length M6 bolt. I'd make each coupling piece out of aluminum possibly adding another leg (make it a type of "Z" shape) so that lower leg could fasten to both bolt holes in lower plenum. Then again, there is a sort of ledge where rail normally fits.
This seems too "easy". Thoughts please? What am I missing here? It sure seems like the injectors will seal safely and the regulator is at the same angle it would be if mounted in "OEM" position. (and even if it were upside-down, it shouldn't matter anyways, I'd think). I can't see where the added couplers would interfere.
Thanks much,
Neil.
These images show up in my browser but if they don't work, they're in this google album
https://photos.google.com/share/AF1QipNDBS9jo4x1k-...9qd2RjSDJn
looking from side driver side rear of engine compartment Firewall is at left in image. (Sorry. Couldn't find the other 2 injectors. Where are they?  ):
view from pulley end of engine. You can see what I mean by adding a leg to make part sort of a "Z" shape:
similar shot. You can kind of see the "ledge" I referred to:
looking from passenger side rear:
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN
Last edited by Vanagon Nut on Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:24 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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Vanagon Nut
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Joined: February 08, 2008
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:13 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Fuel Rail; install end for end? ( 180º ) PICS |
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Shown below, what I meant by adding a leg to the bracket. Edit: bracket would not be as tall as shown.
Anyone done this?
Thanks
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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tristessa
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Joined: April 07, 2004
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Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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I haven't done it or seen it done, but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work as long as the brackets aren't made of something bendy. Aluminum blocks about the size of the wood you've mocked up with would certainly be solid enough.
Come to think of it, why not just use hardwood like oak or mahogany? I mean, I've seen carb isolators/spacers made from MDF.... |
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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| tristessa wrote: |
I haven't done it or seen it done, but I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work as long as the brackets aren't made of something bendy. Aluminum blocks about the size of the wood you've mocked up with would certainly be solid enough.
Come to think of it, why not just use hardwood like oak or mahogany? I mean, I've seen carb isolators/spacers made from MDF.... |
Please say it ain't so! LOL. MDF..... 
Yes. I'd use aluminum. Wood shown was what I had lying around; i.e no oak kicking around. 
Ok. Thanks. Helpful. Currently, aside from possible interference with other parts, I can't see why it couldn't be safely done. It would be time consuming; no band saw or milling machine here, but I'm happy to do the R&D as long as it doesn't include smoke and flames. (fuel leaks)
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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mellowslow
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Joined: July 31, 2009
Posts: 278
Location: Vacationland
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 3:25 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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Hey Neil.
I've seen it done. Makes for a cleaner look to the build without the extra fuel line running back with enough slack so as not to kink.
The builder fabricated a couple of brackets out of 1/4" stock aluminum.
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'87 WBWE FAS Gen V |
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:31 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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| mellowslow wrote: |
Hey Neil.
I've seen it done. Makes for a cleaner look to the build without the extra fuel line running back with enough slack so as not to kink.
The builder fabricated a couple of brackets out of 1/4" stock aluminum. |
Thanks Scott. Ok. Awesome. Great to know someones done it, what material was used. Very useful. Helps confirm I'm not entirely crazy to try this.
Part of what I wanted to do was help keep fuel from picking up engine heat. The other goal was to keep hoses away from potential belt failure. To that end, my 15º swap uses brass 90º fittings in place of that "slack". But my first iteration saw the "slack" you speak of. I've seen swaps that more or less run the hoses close to a 90º off the rail nipples but I wonder how much stress that puts on those nipples.
Neil.
This is how the fuel hoses on my 15º swap used to be. IMO, wrong:
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
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Posts: 10379
Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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I'm sure someone knows but I'm curious what the "guard" I point to in image below, is for.
Neil.
stock photo of ABA engine, my text.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Turbod16v
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Joined: October 11, 2016
Posts: 156
Location: beaver twp, PA
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 3:16 am Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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I've been occasionally looking (motor is next years project) on Ebay uk, mexico ex... looking for the factory version that already has the fuel fittings on the "other side" used on transverse mounted 1.6l and 2.0 that use the same aba style head and lower intake.
the passat and audi A4 1.6l use the same intake as aba and have the fuel ports on the side we want for a vanagon.
newer versions are plastic with clamp on upper manifold vs bolt on for older, but that lower half looks like a great donor for making a intake that would fit under the decklid.
check into that.
factory fit.
this is the one i've considered order to make my own tube intake with.
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:57 am Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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| Turbod16v wrote: |
I've been occasionally looking (motor is next years project) on Ebay uk, mexico ex... looking for the factory version that already has the fuel fittings on the "other side" used on transverse mounted 1.6l and 2.0 that use the same aba style head and lower intake.
the passat and audi A4 1.6l use the same intake as aba and have the fuel ports on the side we want for a vanagon.
newer versions are plastic with clamp on upper manifold vs bolt on for older, but that lower half looks like a great donor for making a intake that would fit under the decklid.
check into that.
factory fit.
this is the one i've considered order to make my own tube intake with.
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Interesting to see that those flexible connectors. Looks like they're roughly horizontal to the plenum. I'd considered using flexible connectors as transitions to a sawed off ABA lower plenum. WBX uses them. A proper hose would last a long time I'd think. Thanks for the image and information.
Using 06B133200D part number brings up more images of complete manifold and bleep engine images.
You've probably seen this but below are some images from icolquhoun a forum member here who made a custom "below the deck" intake.
Neil.
icolquhoun image
Some A Z M engine images.
Not certain this is an A Z M engine but the exhaust manifold might be nice for this swap.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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tristessa
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Joined: April 07, 2004
Posts: 3992
Location: Portland, OR
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 1:45 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Please say it ain't so! LOL. MDF..... |
Sure, why not? As long as the bores are sealed with something like gasket shellac to keep gasoline from soaking in, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. It's glorified paper...
...maybe look to see if the 1.8T fuel rail would work as far as mounting and injector spacing. It's already got the connections at the flywheel end of the motor. |
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 5:01 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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| tristessa wrote: |
| Vanagon Nut wrote: |
| Please say it ain't so! LOL. MDF..... |
Sure, why not? As long as the bores are sealed with something like gasket shellac to keep gasoline from soaking in, I can't see any reason why it wouldn't work. It's glorified paper...
...maybe look to see if the 1.8T fuel rail would work as far as mounting and injector spacing. It's already got the connections at the flywheel end of the motor. |
Ya, my reaction was a bit too quick. I mean the WBX uses a thick composite gasket at intake runners to head.
I think the 1.8T rail is evenly spaced. i.e. the 2 middle injectors are not closer together like the ABA uses. 
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 10:18 am Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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I'm not certain of this but images of this engine appear to show a "flipped" ABA rail. Just interesting to see the rail brackets. Have no idea how many miles were put on this engine.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Turbod16v
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Joined: October 11, 2016
Posts: 156
Location: beaver twp, PA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:48 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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I had purchased the aluminum Intake manifold for the ADP engine hoping it would be a magic fix but it was not. still sticks up to high.
there is a single and dual outlet version of the exhaust manifold for that engine. the doenpipe can be had for $80 to 100 shipped to u.s and has the correct flange for the ADP engine and the audi 80 exhaust manifold.
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Zeitgeist 13
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Joined: March 05, 2009
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Location: Port Manteau
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:00 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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I'm not sure I'd trust those injector rail holders
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:13 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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| Turbod16v wrote: |
I had purchased the aluminum Intake manifold for the ADP engine hoping it would be a magic fix but it was not. still sticks up to high.
there is a single and dual outlet version of the exhaust manifold for that engine. the doenpipe can be had for $80 to 100 shipped to u.s and has the correct flange for the ADP engine and the audi 80 exhaust manifold. |
Too bad. Thanks for reporting back though. I'm trying to find it but somewhere I have an image showing a very rough mock up I did of counterflow intake resting on the ABA. It wasn't promising. It too looked like it might stick up too high.
Good to know re exhaust. I'm still leaning towards a "toilet bowl" based exhaust using an RV block manifold. We'll see. That system uses a relatively narrow pipe.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 1:15 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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| Zeitgeist 13 wrote: |
| I'm not sure I'd trust those injector rail holders |
Yes! I agree.
If I, *ahem*, attempt to build a lower profile intake, I'd have to cut the ABA lower plenum pretty short. This would obviously remove the factory mount points for fuel rail. It's all "just metal" but as you know, "devils in the details".
Neil.
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
VE7TBN |
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Turbod16v
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Posts: 156
Location: beaver twp, PA
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:03 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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here is the manifold I tried. and a pic of a mk4 manifold .
unfortunately it sticks out 13" straight from the head. shame as I bet them long runners make for some nice torque on the vanagon.
the euro 1.6l it comes off of makes almost as much power as the 2.0l ABA.
my motor is not in yet as you can see so not sure how many inches of clearance there is from the machined surface the intake bolts to to the engine cover.
would work well on a 15* set up though....for sale if anyone wants it! I got $100 into it.
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Zeitgeist 13
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 2:14 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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Wow Neil, that would make for a sweet 15 degree ABA install.
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Casey--
'89 Bluestar ALH w/12mm Waldo pump, PP764 and GT2052
'01 Weekender --> full camper
y u rune klassik? |
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Vanagon Nut
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Location: Sunshine Coast B.C.
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| Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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Turbod16v
great to see those images. Very helpful. It looks like the TB would not interfere with the Vanagon firewall. The way the TB would be angled, I wonder if there would be room to run duct to the stock air box? Anyhow.......
Casey: yes! That manifold would do well for the 15º install
Hmmm......
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1981 Westy DIY 15º ABA
1988 West DIY 50º ABA
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Turbod16v
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Joined: October 11, 2016
Posts: 156
Location: beaver twp, PA
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| Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 3:13 am Post subject: Re: ABA Engine swap: flip fuel rail 180º ? PICS |
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your welcome.
The throttle body should sit almost in line with the distributor and a little bit above. I figured with a Cobra 90* or even a regular 90* elbow used, you could make a connection to the stock air box location used on a gas model.
Of course all of this is in my head modeling and design...or speculation since i do not have motor set in yet.
back to the fuel rail, i think the factory version lies in a German or Mexican model with a transverse mounted 1.6, 1.8 or 2.0.
its just a matter of taking the factory lower intake part number from either the ABA or AEG and search foreign etka for vehicles that use that lower intake,find one that's transverse mounted, then on to foreign ebays to find one.
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