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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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 Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:22 am Post subject: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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I have two chassis that i'm making into one, using the best parts. One is a swing axle, the other is an IRS.
The IRS chassis has drum brakes with a 4 lug bolt pattern.
The Older Swing axle chassis has the narrow 5 lug pattern.
Which do I want? Is the swap straight forward?
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ACME Cruiser Sand Rail, 1776, Combo spindles,
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pullstart
Samba Member
Joined: August 23, 2016
Posts: 599
Location: Middleville, MI
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 11:43 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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Which wheels do you prefer? I think the narrow 5 was only used for a short amount of time in the VW Bug world... I THINK. It might be that 4 lug wheels are easier to come by than the narrow 5.
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4 seater Appletree buggy, road legal with 002 IRS, 3x3 Appletree kit, 6" over Dan's beam with 10" towers and Fox 2.0 shocks, '00 Subaru EJ25 with KEP stage 3 clutch and KEP adapter plate.
my build page: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=662104&start=0 |
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jsturtlebuggy
Samba Member
Joined: August 24, 2005
Posts: 4496
Location: Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 12:35 pm Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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Can you explain a little more on what you calling a narrow 5lug pattern?
When VW Bugs first came to America that had a 5 on 205mm pattern with 1967 being the last year to use them. 1968 Bug and on use the 4 on 130mm pattern.
Ghia, Buses, and type 3 switch at different times their lug bolt pattern.
Later Buses use a 5 on 112mm pattern and it has become common to use the Porsche 5 on 130mm on modified drums and rotors.
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Joseph
Fair Oaks/Orangevale, CA
Elrod Motorsports
Motion Tire Motorsports
Having fun with Dune Buggies since 1970
Into Volkswagens since 1960 |
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vwjetboat
Samba Member
Joined: May 11, 2017
Posts: 1732
Location: Florida
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 1:20 pm Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Can you explain a little more on what you calling a narrow 5lug pattern?
When VW Bugs first came to America that had a 5 on 205mm pattern with 1967 being the last year to use them. 1968 Bug and on use the 4 on 130mm pattern.
Ghia, Buses, and type 3 switch at different times their lug bolt pattern.
Later Buses use a 5 on 112mm pattern and it has become common to use the Porsche 5 on 130mm on modified drums and rotors. |
I only know of the WIDE 5 ... only time I saw smaller 5 lug on bug the drums were drilled.. |
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Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 2:49 pm Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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Does the swing axle chassis have a link pin front end ?
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dustymojave
Samba Member
Joined: January 07, 2007
Posts: 5802
Location: Lake LA, Mojave Desert, SoCal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 11, 2017 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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| Dark Earth wrote: |
| Does the swing axle chassis have a link pin front end ? |
Yes and no. Swing axle was used on the rear of US delivery Bugs throuh the 1968 year model. '68 Auto-Stickshift Bugs got IRS. From the beginning of the 1969 year model US delivery Bugs got IRS.
Note that above I refer to "US delivery". That's because for markets other than the USA, VW Bugs were offered with swingaxle all the way up through the end of VW Bug production in 2003. VW also offered 4-joint rear axle "IRS" for upscale models around the world through the end of production.
All Bugs exported to the US by VW were "Deluxe" models, even though American VW enthusiasts in their ignorance refer to them as "standard" Bugs.
Now I've told you about rear suspension, now let's move on to the front suspension.
Link pin front suspension was used in Bugs through the 1965 year model. Then VW switched the front beam to ball joint for all Bugs until what we Americans know as the Super Beetle" was introduced in the 1971 models. All non-Super Beetle Bugs still got ball joint beam front ends, again, all the way through the end of production.
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Richard
Offroading VW based cars since 1965
Tech Inspection 1963 - 2012 SCCA/SCORE/HDRA/MORE/MDR +
Retired from building Bajas, Fiberglass Buggies and Rails in the Mojave Desert. Also Sprints & Midgets, Dry Lakes, Road Race cars. All types New and Vintage
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Kicked Cancer's A$$...1st and 2nd round...Fight ain't over yet. |
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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:30 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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| Dark Earth wrote: |
| Does the swing axle chassis have a link pin front end ? |
Mine does, yes!
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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 6:34 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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| jsturtlebuggy wrote: |
Can you explain a little more on what you calling a narrow 5lug pattern?
When VW Bugs first came to America that had a 5 on 205mm pattern with 1967 being the last year to use them. 1968 Bug and on use the 4 on 130mm pattern.
Ghia, Buses, and type 3 switch at different times their lug bolt pattern.
Later Buses use a 5 on 112mm pattern and it has become common to use the Porsche 5 on 130mm on modified drums and rotors. |
When I get home, I'll shoot a picture. I am calling them a narrow 5 based on my memory of just looking at them. I think they are original to when my buggy was factory built in 1959. Could be wrong.
I still have not ID'd the tub. It is very very close to a Manx, but has two evenly spaced ridges down the hood vs. one in the middle.
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Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
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| Posted: Thu Oct 12, 2017 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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| biotex wrote: |
| Dark Earth wrote: |
| Does the swing axle chassis have a link pin front end ? |
Mine does, yes! |
The ideal setup would be linkpin front suspension and IRS rear suspension. It involves a bit of fabrication.
DancingOnTheAshes recently converted a swing axle rear suspension to IRS.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=684141
You could also convert the IRS chassis to linkpin front suspension, if it's a VW Beetle pan, by cutting off the balljoint front end frame head and welding on a linkpin front frame head. The frame head would have to be welded on so that the front beam is parallel with the rear torsion housing or the car would track funny. You could cut off the linkpin frame head from the swing axle chassis, if it's a VW Beetle pan, and weld it on the IRS chassis in place of the ball joint front end frame head.
Some company's also sell new link pin frame heads to weld on.
The linkpin front suspension comes in wide 5.
To convert the rear IRS to wide five, you can go with type 3 rear brakes, use four to five lug wheel adapters, or get VW "Thing" rear drums.
Then you'd have wide 5 wheels front and rear.
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biotex
Samba Member
Joined: January 22, 2014
Posts: 316
Location: Alpine, TX
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:45 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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Thanks Dark Earth for such a detailed explanation. I am wondering why the older link pin front end is better. Is it because of turning radius, travel potential, or is it stronger?
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Dark Earth
Samba Member
Joined: December 22, 2015
Posts: 1054
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| Posted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 7:28 am Post subject: Re: 4 lug or 5 lug? |
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| biotex wrote: |
| Thanks Dark Earth for such a detailed explanation. I am wondering why the older link pin front end is better. Is it because of turning radius, travel potential, or is it stronger? |
I think the ball joint front ends weak link is the ball joints themselves. My baja project has a ball joint front end and I plan to put "hook and rod stops" on it to keep the ball joints in their workable "range". I've just always heard the linkpin front ends are stronger.
Here's a link about ball joint front ends ...
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=491123&highlight=virgins
Here's the hook and rod stops from link ...
The picture actually shows a "Thing" ball joint front end with factory lift spindles and ball joints facing the same direction for added strength
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