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coloradolife Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 29 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Yesterday 12:30 pm Post subject: SVX or EJ25 |
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I know that the EJ25 is the more popular option for Subaru conversions these days but I find myself at an interesting crossroads:
This is for an 84 1.9 Vanagon (westfalia).
I have a complete EJ25 that is getting a complete rebuild (including lower end). I had planned to marry this to a 4EAT using SubaruGears parts. I have the ECU and wiring harness for this engine as well.
HOWEVER- I was just offered a complete SVX drive train and wiring harness out of low milage SVX. I know this is also a 4EAT trans but I'm not sure if the version in the car is correct for using with the Subaru Gears options available. I wouldn't have to pay anything for this.
Here is what I'm wondering about and hoping the community can provide some insight based on experiences.
1) Parts availability- SVX doesn't have the same plentitude of parts out there for future repairs but since I work at a Subaru dealer and know lots of people in that community, I might be able to stock up ahead of time on likely failures. How much of an issue is this really? I've heard people worrying about it but I haven't heard anyone with experience weigh in on what struggles I'm likely to encounter
2) Wiring Harness- is anyone modifying wiring harnesses from the SVX?
3) Engine compartment is tight- I've heard that modification of the engine compartment is necessary/beneficial. I think I'm ok with this but let me know if I should be more concerned
4) Transmission- if in fact I have the WRONG 4EAT version, can I hook up the correct one to this motor?
I figure worst case scenario, if I have the right trans, I could simply swap my EJ-25 in place of the SVX if the worst happened and I couldn't salvage the dead SVX down the road if it came to that.
It looks like SmallCar and VanCafe both have most if not all the parts I need to get this done but I don't see that anyone has done the SVX with the 4EAT (just from searching here, I mean). |
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vanis13 Samba Member
Joined: August 15, 2010 Posts: 3083 Location: ABQ NM USA.... Except when not
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Posted: Yesterday 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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As a 2.5 owner with a friend with a svx.
How much wrenching/priject you want to do?
1)
If a lot, go svx, it's fun drive!
2)
If not alot, go 2.5
....my friend will be replacing the svx with a 2.5
Re: EAT, I don't know, maybe the vendors can give you advice. _________________ 83.5 Westy with Subaru 2.5, 4 spd manual, center seat, COLD A/C on 134a!, Winter camp heated with an Espar B4 gasoline furnace
www.SuperVanagon.com - some stuff I make |
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coloradolife Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 29 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Yesterday 12:45 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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I definitely assume more work getting the SVX in there but do you mean less reliability as well? This would make sense, DOHC vs SOHC etc. Just maintenance issues?
vanis13 wrote: |
As a 2.5 owner with a friend with a svx.
How much wrenching/priject you want to do?
1)
If a lot, go svx, it's fun drive!
2)
If not alot, go 2.5
....my friend will be replacing the svx with a 2.5
Re: EAT, I don't know, maybe the vendors can give you advice. |
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skills@eurocarsplus Samba Peckerhead
Joined: January 01, 2007 Posts: 16803 Location: sticksville, ct.
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Posted: Yesterday 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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the SVX has a LOT of NLA parts. Last I knew MAF's and ECT's were getting very scarce as well as a bunch of wacky SVX only hoses/intake bits _________________
gprudenciop wrote: |
my reason for switching to subaru is my german car was turning chinese so i said fuck it and went japanese....... |
Jake Raby wrote: |
Thanks for the correction. I used to be a nice guy, then I ruined it by exposing myself to the public. |
Brian wrote: |
Also the fact that people are agreeing with Skills, it's a turn of events for samba history |
Last edited by skills@eurocarsplus on Yesterday 1:34 pm; edited 1 time in total |
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Captain Pike Samba Member
Joined: December 30, 2003 Posts: 3328 Location: Talos IV, Piedmont Arizona
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Posted: Yesterday 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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I found spares fer the maf and tps. I enjoy having the ability to go to warp speed when I want to. Loaded with camping gear for 10 people 75mph uphill on Pa 476. Notorious for slow spots due to the hills.
Also a noninterference engine. Really a 2.2 w/2 extra pistons. _________________ If You Build It______It Will Run
1959 Panel bus, 1966 Single cab. 73' 181. 73 Westy. 91' H6 Vanagon 3.3L.
.....................All Current....................... |
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vanagondan Samba Member
Joined: September 09, 2020 Posts: 66 Location: WA
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Posted: Yesterday 2:08 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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Do a 2001-2005 WRX. |
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Howesight Samba Member
Joined: July 02, 2008 Posts: 3262 Location: Vancouver, B.C.
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Posted: Yesterday 2:16 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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We have a Westy Syncro with re-geared 094 VW transaxle and the SVX engine. When I decided (in 2008-9) on the choice of SVX engine, there was not yet a lot of info going around concerning the impact of these large engines on the 094 AWD transaxle. I imagined driving 80mph up mountain passes. We did do that a few times in the early days after doing the engine swap in 2012, but sparingly, because the breakage of Syncro transaxles was becoming more reported here and elsewhere. So realistically, we now have a very powerful engine, but can't utilize all the power on offer.
If the 4EAT or similar automatic transaxle can, in a heavy van, handle the torque and horsepower of the SVX engine, and if you prefer to drive at high speeds and can live with the resulting gas mileage, then go for it. On gas mileage, when driven the same way as a 2.5, the SVX will yield the same gas mileage. The best gas mileage I have gotten was 320 miles for the full Syncro tank - - equivalent to about 19.5 or 20 MPG (US Gallons) The worst gas mileage was about 11 mpg at 75 to 80 mph in a 20 mph headwind.
On reliability and robustness, the SVX engine is seriously overbuilt. The 2.5 actually has MORE things that can go wrong and is more complex. The SVX engine has 4 camshafts, but no rockers, no need for valve lash adjustment, no Variable Valve Timing to go sideways, and uses bucket tappets. Bucket tappets do not impose any side loading on valves, so the valve guides and valve guide seals tend to last longer than in rocker-equipped engines. As others have noted, the SVX is a non-interference engine. As Captain Pike has noted, it is not that hard to source the small number of parts that can fail on the SVX, (even on Talus 4, provided that you speak passable Klingon).
If you do decide to use the SVX engine, then be prepared to replace the cylinder head gaskets, all seals, (including the valve stem seals), and, if you do not know whether the SVX engine was an oil drinker, remove the pistons and clean them. To do this, I would suggest soaking them in Berryman's Chem Dip to remove all the gunk and sludge in the rings and ring grooves, noting first the location of each ring gap.
This assumes that the bores are not damaged in any way. This approach would allow you to re-use the original rings with no need for honing. If the engine was run on synthetic oil most of its life (mine was), then the rings will likely be in good condition with little or no sludge or other ring-sticking compounds.
Another thing to address on the SVX engine is to carefully replace every rubber vacuum hose on the engine. The factory rubber hoses degrade from time and heat. The plastic sensors and nipples that the hoses connect to are very brittle, so remove the old hardened hoses with great care to avoid breakage of the sensors and nipples.
My experience with the SVX engine has been that it is a phenomenally-reliable engine. I had an ignition coil failure on one trip which was the only issue ever experienced on a trip and was the impetus for me to carry a spare coil on board. I also have a dodgy Thottle Position Sensor that refuses to work properly until the engine is warm-ish. I have not searched far and wide for a replacement for that sensor, since the drivability is only affected for one or two minutes after a cold start. That's it for issues.
Hope this helps. _________________ '86 Syncro Westy SVX |
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coloradolife Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 29 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Yesterday 4:42 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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This is really detailed insight. Thank you. I do work at a large Subaru retailer and this car was serviced with us at all recommended intervals. I'll have to check and see whether they were running synthetic in it at that time. It had a collision at 74,000 miles and is twisted. It's still drivable but can't be aligned etc. It sat on our property since then but we would be able to fire it up and test run it before pulling the parts.
It's very useful to see what spare parts you and CaptainPike are both keeping on hand.
After doing more research today I'm thinking it has the wrong 4EAT variant behind that motor to use either the SubaruGears or Reversaru transmission conversion though. I think I'd have to drop the trans and engine out of the donor car to know for certain as I believe the sticker is on top of the bell housing. I did see that people have mated it to the subaru 5 speed manual but that would be another expense so would kind of eat up all the savings I'd get by having a complete SVX drivetrain.
Pretty much everyone I've asked says the VW transmission won't survive behind a EG33 and if I built the VW trans stronger, that money would be better spent on something like a Subaru 5 speed manual conversion. I know that I can't be trusted to go easy on the throttle if I have a higher output engine on tap. May as well just stick with EJ25 in that case anyway I suppose.
Howesight wrote: |
We have a Westy Syncro with re-geared 094 VW transaxle and the SVX engine. When I decided (in 2008-9) on the choice of SVX engine, there was not yet a lot of info going around concerning the impact of these large engines on the 094 AWD transaxle. I imagined driving 80mph up mountain passes. We did do that a few times in the early days after doing the engine swap in 2012, but sparingly, because the breakage of Syncro transaxles was becoming more reported here and elsewhere. So realistically, we now have a very powerful engine, but can't utilize all the power on offer.
If the 4EAT or similar automatic transaxle can, in a heavy van, handle the torque and horsepower of the SVX engine, and if you prefer to drive at high speeds and can live with the resulting gas mileage, then go for it. On gas mileage, when driven the same way as a 2.5, the SVX will yield the same gas mileage. The best gas mileage I have gotten was 320 miles for the full Syncro tank - - equivalent to about 19.5 or 20 MPG (US Gallons) The worst gas mileage was about 11 mpg at 75 to 80 mph in a 20 mph headwind.
On reliability and robustness, the SVX engine is seriously overbuilt. The 2.5 actually has MORE things that can go wrong and is more complex. The SVX engine has 4 camshafts, but no rockers, no need for valve lash adjustment, no Variable Valve Timing to go sideways, and uses bucket tappets. Bucket tappets do not impose any side loading on valves, so the valve guides and valve guide seals tend to last longer than in rocker-equipped engines. As others have noted, the SVX is a non-interference engine. As Captain Pike has noted, it is not that hard to source the small number of parts that can fail on the SVX, (even on Talus 4, provided that you speak passable Klingon).
If you do decide to use the SVX engine, then be prepared to replace the cylinder head gaskets, all seals, (including the valve stem seals), and, if you do not know whether the SVX engine was an oil drinker, remove the pistons and clean them. To do this, I would suggest soaking them in Berryman's Chem Dip to remove all the gunk and sludge in the rings and ring grooves, noting first the location of each ring gap.
This assumes that the bores are not damaged in any way. This approach would allow you to re-use the original rings with no need for honing. If the engine was run on synthetic oil most of its life (mine was), then the rings will likely be in good condition with little or no sludge or other ring-sticking compounds.
Another thing to address on the SVX engine is to carefully replace every rubber vacuum hose on the engine. The factory rubber hoses degrade from time and heat. The plastic sensors and nipples that the hoses connect to are very brittle, so remove the old hardened hoses with great care to avoid breakage of the sensors and nipples.
My experience with the SVX engine has been that it is a phenomenally-reliable engine. I had an ignition coil failure on one trip which was the only issue ever experienced on a trip and was the impetus for me to carry a spare coil on board. I also have a dodgy Thottle Position Sensor that refuses to work properly until the engine is warm-ish. I have not searched far and wide for a replacement for that sensor, since the drivability is only affected for one or two minutes after a cold start. That's it for issues.
Hope this helps. |
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markswagen Samba Member
Joined: January 28, 2018 Posts: 956 Location: san diego
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Posted: Yesterday 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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for ease and simplicity go with the EJ25, it's a great engine.
if the SVX were legal to use here in cali l'd give it a go, just because. _________________ markswagen {mobile mechanic} san diego area all early VW's cared for.
619 201 0310 |
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Sodo Samba Member
Joined: July 06, 2007 Posts: 9521 Location: Western WA
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Posted: Yesterday 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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Keep in mind you can’t build the VW trans “much stronger “.
Maybe a “little stronger”.
And it will be expensive to do so.
The Aluminum case is hard to find (if not impossible), and a CNC aluminum gear carrier is $1000.
A chain is only as strong as its weakest link so you’d have to change every link.
I don’t know about R&Ps….there’s only aftermarket available and I’m not hearing a lot of enthusiasm for the current aftermarket replacements.
VW R&Ps are widely considered to be the best but get ruined by driving after the bearings have worn loose.
If you want to preserve a genuine VW R&P you have to renew the bearings before the gear teeth are worn in an irreversible pattern by the loose bearing.
Nobody’s gonna change bearings though, they'll just run it out.
It can cost a lot of money to preserve your VW R&P, ( its a dilemma, solved by the fact that nobody wants to do it ! )
But you can maintain it better than most people did (most fell for the "lifetime fluids" advice in the owners manual ).
Problem is, you’re likely starting with a transaxle that was “spent” by the first owner without thought for its 200, 300k mile stages and may barely tolerate 90 hp.
You’re waking up grampa & signing him up to run a marathon.
I have yet to see evidence that the Subaru trans is stronger in this usage.
The Subaru R&P is quite a bit smaller than the 094.
094 has a 7.5” Ring. I think Subaru is about 6.5” which I’m guessing because nobody posts the Subaru Ring gear size.
And nobody posts “big mile results” with a Subaru trans pushing the brick.
We may have to wait a few more years for that info, but it has been a few.
People compare gearboxes by engine HP, and that’s only part of the story. The engine puts out that much power for only a short time in a Sedan. Pushing a brick, it puts that power thru the gearbox for extended periods.
The cumulative duty is the full story.
Attaching a Vanagon to a Subaru gearbox is like permanently bolting a trailer to the Subaru sedan.
Not just on 4 weeends per year.
24/7/365.
There is no data for this Subaru Sedan condition.
The Subaru gearbox could be newer, and they are a split-case - pretty easy to replace the bearings to keep the gears all working nicely together.
I haven't seen anything proving that a Subaru gearbox is tougher - we need more data and it's hard to get.
People who are breaking them are keeping quiet and those NOT breaking them have nothing to complain about.
No data.
I know a guy with an SVX pushing a hightop. He has de-tuned the throttle cable to 60% after eating a few (VW) gearboxes.
I think trouble starts at around 70mph.
If you can use 65 as your “general max” you can probably get the gearbox to survive with an SVX. _________________
'90 Westy EJ25, 2Peloquins, 3knobs, pressure-oiled GT mainshaft, filtered, cooled gearbox
'87 Tintop w 47k 53k, '12 SmallCar EJ25, cooled filtered gearbox
....KTMs, GasGas, SPOT mtb
Last edited by Sodo on Yesterday 9:52 pm; edited 2 times in total |
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mtnhome Samba Member
Joined: July 17, 2010 Posts: 490 Location: Summit County, CO
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Posted: Yesterday 8:23 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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Have you already invested in parts for an ej25 install or still gathering info and parts? I did this for a long time before finally getting mine done.
If you have already invested in a lot of parts for the ej25, then I'd suggest going that direction. While the SVX is an interesting option, the ej25 will be a lot easier to support.
Better yet, there is a Denver Vanagons get together on April 7th. There are usually a good assortment of vans with and without various conversions. You can talk to folks with a lot of real life experience driving their vans in all sorts of terrain and conditions, especially in CO. If you haven't already, join the Denver Vanagons Facebook group. It's actually got members from all over the state.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=688106 _________________ '84 Westy, '93 Subaru ej22 and Subarugears 5speed
Build thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=763098&highlight= |
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coloradolife Samba Member
Joined: March 28, 2016 Posts: 29 Location: Colorado
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Posted: Yesterday 8:54 pm Post subject: Re: SVX or EJ25 |
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Just saw that post today. Planning to attend actually.
mtnhome wrote: |
Have you already invested in parts for an ej25 install or still gathering info and parts? I did this for a long time before finally getting mine done.
If you have already invested in a lot of parts for the ej25, then I'd suggest going that direction. While the SVX is an interesting option, the ej25 will be a lot easier to support.
Better yet, there is a Denver Vanagons get together on April 7th. There are usually a good assortment of vans with and without various conversions. You can talk to folks with a lot of real life experience driving their vans in all sorts of terrain and conditions, especially in CO. If you haven't already, join the Denver Vanagons Facebook group. It's actually got members from all over the state.
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=688106 |
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