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Help me tune to pass emissions
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bnam
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:16 am    Post subject: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

I picked up a 65 Ghia this week which came with a later DP (likely 1600) engine, I need to get it tuned up right to pass the basic idle smog test.

I plan to tune the car tomorrow starting with setting the valve clearances.

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The carb is a Bocar 34pict3. The distributor is a 211905205S with an SVDA vac can with the number 309 stamped on the arm.

The crank pulley is 6.75" (smaller than the 7" stock one on my 71 vert) and has one mark on it.

I'm trying to determine the timing specs for this setup.

As you can see in the pic, the vac can was stupidly connected to both the advance and the retard ports. But, the tube had pulled off on the retard side. It did run, but must have been tuned rich to compensate for the air leak (?).

I've replaced the carb for now with a rebuild German Solex 34pict3 (vw325_2) that was running well on my 71 vert.

According to a pdf chart I found on this site, the 205S distributor should come with a 461 stamped vac can with 8-12 deg of advance. I've not found any reference on a 309 can, but that's what's on there. Any idea what the specs are for a 309 can?

I'd like to know what setting I should time the car to -- 0deg TDC or 7.5 deg BTDC? Which year/s used this smaller crank pulley? What is the marking likely to be? TDC? other? (I'll try to use the pencil method to find tdc and measure for myself tomorrow, but confirmation would be good).

Oldvolkshome data suggests that the 205S is a substitute for the 205Q, but the latter is listed as a DVDA, while the PDF and the current config on my sample make the 205S out to be an SVDA disti.

Thanks!
Byas




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allamaabroad
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:21 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

First thing first, set valves then do a compression test. A low compression engine will never pass emissions, ask me how I know...
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bnam
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:01 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

allamaabroad wrote:
First thing first, set valves then do a compression test. A low compression engine will never pass emissions, ask me how I know...


Smog check here is very basic. Costs $2 and measures CO, HC, CO2, and O2 (IIRC) only at idle. I'm not too worried about passing. But, I'd like to figure out the tuning settings for this engine anyhow.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 10:44 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Are the emission checks based on the model year ('65) or the engine installed? Some checks used the model year as the standard unless the engine has been changed (as in your case), then a different standard may be used.

I'd think a '65 would be exempt from any emission checks since there was no published emission #s from VW in '65.
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bnam
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

It's based on year. I think the standard is just 3%CO and 1500ppm HC.

Any thoughts on the marking on the 6.75"pulley? Is it likely to be TDC? And should I be timing at 0deg tdc or 7.5 for the set up I have?

thx!
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 5:52 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

bnam wrote:
It's based on year. I think the standard is just 3%CO and 1500ppm HC.

Any thoughts on the marking on the 6.75"pulley? Is it likely to be TDC? And should I be timing at 0deg tdc or 7.5 for the set up I have?

thx!

We can only guess about an aftermarket pulley. But since TDC is 90 clockwise past the woodruff key, you can easily remove the nut from the pulley and check it yourself. Wink
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:20 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

You might consider borrowing the pulley off the other car and loosely installing it on that engine to confirm where TDC really is, then carefully slip it off and put yours back and mark it if it's wrong. For timing have a look at this:
(pay attention to the type 1 parts in your case)
busdaddy wrote:
Here's the sermon Very Happy
First you need to determine exactly where TDC is on your pulley and then set the timing at speed like this: Here's my timing for noobs rundown (keep in mind this assumes you have a degree wheel, timing scale or dial advance timing light and know where TDC really is, if you don't understand the marks on your type 1 pulley read this: http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=251672&highlight=stock+pulley+marks ). Or if type 4 see this: http://www.ratwell.com/technical/FindTimingMark.html

If you only have one hose attached to your distributor pull it off, you don't need to cap it (no need on single hose systems), if you have 2 pull them both off but plug the one that was connected to the nipple facing the distributor (retard {not you, that's what the hose does}). Now connect the timing light to the battery and the #1 plug wire according to the timing light instructions (and set it to zero if it's the type with adjustments). Now start the engine and shoot the timing light at the scale and pulley (hold the light in your right hand), see the mark on the pulley?, good. Now using your left hand slowly open the throttle on the side of the carb or throttle body (move it the same way the cable pulls it) and watch the timing mark VS: the scale, the mark on the pulley should start to move to the left, open the throttle a little more and continue until the mark no longer moves to the left any more (yes it's loud, isn't it?), give it a bit more throttle just to confirm the mark is staying put at wherever it stopped (hopefully 28 degrees) and then release the throttle. If it stopped at 28 move on to carb/FI adjustment, if it went past or didn't make it all the way loosen the distributor clamp a little and turn the distributor a few degrees one way or the other (you pick, if it's worse go the other way), repeat until you find the happy spot and don't forget to tighten the clamp when you are done (make sure the distributor is pushed down all the way into the case too). Avoid loose fitting clothing and long hair near spinning fans and belts too, no need for a trip to emergency. Now put the hose back on, pack up the timing light and move on to carb or FI adjustment.


Without a Co meter you'll have to adjust the carb for best idle at ~900-950 RPM and lean the mixture screw to drop it 50 RPM, the objective is to get it as lean as possible without it starting to miss and begin making excessive Hc's. Make sure it's warmed up and do the adjustments immediately after a drive, just idling in the driveway doesn't get it warm enough. Most blanket smog idle checks look for a Co around 5% for older carb equipped cars.

A working heat riser tube is crucial to a clean idle as well, if yours doesn't get too hot to touch after a minute or two it's plugged and needs cleaning.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

If you use the pencil method to find TDC, either use a plastic drinking straw, or pull the metal eraser part off the pencil, you don't want the eraser breaking off inside a cylinder.

Some pulleys have a dimple on the rear face, near the timing mark, to mark actual TDC.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 6:41 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

The heat riser on that aftermarket muffler won't warm the manifold. Don't let this engine run at revs before smog, let it idle and warm up that manifold
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 8:22 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Can the pulley be removed with the engine in? How do I counterhold to prevent rotation?
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:03 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Pull the starter and lock up the flywheel with a large screwdriver.
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 13, 2017 9:28 pm    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Or put the transmission in 4th and have a helper stand on the brakes.
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 12:53 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

busdaddy wrote:
Make sure it's warmed up and do the adjustments immediately after a drive,

Change "after a drive" to
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 3:09 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

you can be certain your idle mixture is lean by passing some propane (unlite -right Shocked ) over the carb intake and the engine should rev slightly--any fuel will do- but this is a bit more fire proof.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Got the car tuned up yesterday. Would not start up till the valves were done right -- they were 0.012" to start with. The distributor was off 180deg with #1 where #3 should be. Not a big issue, left that as it.

After warming it up with a couple of drives around the block, I started adjust the timing and carb. The disti seemed to be sticky -- when I adjusted it slightly, the speed would drop to 700rpm and a tad the other way, it would pick up to 1100. So I parked for the night and pulled the disti to do a quick rebuild. Inside, the advance weights and spring were cruddy and a bit gritty. Cleaned it all up and put it back together with some nice clean grease. Advance weights and plate all move smoothly now. Also put a ball bearing that was missing on the vac advance plate.

When I reinstalled the disti this morning, car would not start -- backfiring. Puzzled, I pulled the right valve cover with the disti pointing to #1 and pulley at TDC. I was surprised that #1 valves were not closed -- it was at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke. Somehow I was now 180 deg off!! I was completely flummoxed -- all I had done was pull the disti, rebuild it and put it back.

After thinking thru, I realized, must have reinstalled the upper shaft 180 deg off from where it was previously. Upside is it still works and now #1 is at the mark. Downside is - I don't know if there is a downside. Perhaps, one of the rebuilding experts can comment?

Thanks!
Byas
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bnam
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 3:40 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Got the car tuned up yesterday. Would not start up till the valves were done right -- they were 0.012" to start with. The distributor was off 180deg with #1 where #3 should be. Not a big issue, left that as it.

After warming it up with a couple of drives around the block, I started adjust the timing and carb. The disti seemed to be sticky -- when I adjusted it slightly, the speed would drop to 700rpm and a tad the other way, it would pick up to 1100. So I parked for the night and pulled the disti to do a quick rebuild. Inside, the advance weights and spring were cruddy and a bit gritty. Cleaned it all up and put it back together with some nice clean grease. Advance weights and plate all move smoothly now. Also put a ball bearing that was missing on the vac advance plate.

When I reinstalled the disti this morning, car would not start -- backfiring. Puzzled, I pulled the right valve cover with the disti pointing to #1 and pulley at TDC. I was surprised that #1 valves were not closed -- it was at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke. Somehow I was now 180 deg off!! I was completely flummoxed -- all I had done was pull the disti, rebuild it and put it back.

After thinking thru, I realized, must have reinstalled the upper shaft 180 deg off from where it was previously. Upside is it still works and now #1 is at the mark. Downside is - I don't know if there is a downside. Perhaps, one of the rebuilding experts can comment?

Thanks!
Byas
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David_nc_72std
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 4:15 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

bnam wrote:
The distributor was off 180deg with #1 where #3 should be. Not a big issue, left that as it.

Quote:

When I reinstalled the disti this morning, car would not start -- backfiring. Puzzled, I pulled the right valve cover with the disti pointing to #1 and pulley at TDC. I was surprised that #1 valves were not closed -- it was at TDC at the end of the exhaust stroke. Somehow I was now 180 deg off!! I was completely flummoxed -- all I had done was pull the disti, rebuild it and put it back.

After thinking thru, I realized, must have reinstalled the upper shaft 180 deg off from where it was previously. Upside is it still works and now #1 is at the mark. Downside is - I don't know if there is a downside. Perhaps, one of the rebuilding experts can comment?


The original problem of the rotor being 180 degrees off is caused either by the distributor drive gear being installed 180 degrees off in the engine, or the drive on the bottom of the distributor being installed 180 degrees off.

When you reassembled the distributor, you installed the drive on the end of the distributor shaft 180 degrees off from where it was originally, so now the rotor points to the correct position.

Its possible that both the distributor drive gear, and the drive on the distributor, are 180 degrees off now, or they are both in the correct "factory" position, only way to tell for sure is to turn the engine to TDC on cylinder #1, pull off the distributor, and check the alignment of the drive gear in the engine, but it really makes no difference, except for possible confusion in the future if you replace the distributor and forget that it might be 180 degrees off.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 9:58 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Regardless of you you reached the final outcome all that matters is it's pointing to the correct spot now. Just keep that in mind when changing to a different distributor since it may end up 180* off.
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:24 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

Looking thru my pics...


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The slot is off 225deg. So now that I've flipped the disti around 180, I'm off only 45, which is actually not a bad position as there enough rotation space both ways.

So my question remains - is there a downside (technically) to flipping the orientation the way I did by turning around the upper shaft? If there isn't, it sure beats hammering that pin out to turn the drive 180deg.

Now, that the engine is running reasonably well, I need to attend to the brakes which don't work well, pull slightly and pulsate.

Byas
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 15, 2017 10:47 am    Post subject: Re: Help me tune to pass emissions Reply with quote

clean the engine well before removing the dizzie again all that dirty is waiting to fail into the crank case with the dizzie removed, see also links at bottom of this post regarding engine fires and valve adjustment.

For me, Id set up the dizzie drive shaft correctly, follow the proceedure in the Benetely Official Service Manual. then orient the dizzie drive dog to be correct, do this once and never worry about it again.
I do have a custom orientated dizzie drive dog on one bug that has air conditioning installed, this was needed becuase of interference with some of the AC mounting brackets. the dizzie has a new hole drilled for a different pin orientation, 180 degrees would not have worked.
But we kept the drive in the case correct.


Your engine will run much cooler with the correct engine compartment seals in place, and plugging the holes in the sheet metal, and the open heater hose port is not good, as this too can cook the engine, the heater boxes need that cool air running thru them at all times, even when heater is off, this keeps the head above the heater box cooler, and prevents excess heat damage to the heater box.

good luck in the smog test!!!
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