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Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help!
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ninjacoco
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 10:02 am    Post subject: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

Hi! I have that 24 Hours of Lemons race car that won at Buttonwillow now, and I need to fix it again.

The previous owner said it has a rod knocking, and I'm not quite sure where from or how to even open up the engine to get to it. What all parts would I need to round up to get that started?

I'm desperately searching for the engine tins for the engine bay. It is le toast. Here's what I have in the engine bay so far, which is...not much. What all else, specifically, do I need?

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Is there a factory service manual online or somesuch? I've got the Haynes and Clymer manuals that came with the car, but I do know I've dug into the full factory service book a few times for my 944 and it's been super helpful. That collection of factory PDFage also had a parts list, which is probably what I need right now.

Also, it has an automatic right now, but a friend said they've got a manual transmission from an old VW bus just sitting around. The part number on the case was 902 301 103 D, which seems to suggest it's technically a 912 part unless Googline has led me astray. Either way, will it work with my lil' 411 engine?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

Welcome!

You have a LOT to do. Whats your budget?

Type 4 engines are NOT cheap to properly build. Usually a shoestring STOCK build is about 2X to 2.5X the cost of a STOCK type 1 beetle engine.
The heads for type 4...cannot be scrimped on. Probably one of the best for the money....are from Headflow masters. A quality rebuild...new seats, valves, guides, springs, cylinder seat cleanup etc....will run you somewhere between $800 and $1200 a pair. Don't quote me...call and get a quote.

The very best in the industry from HAM Inc.....somewhere around $2300 a pair....but call and get a quote.

I can get all of the part numbers together over the next couple of days for the sheet metal.

The 411 and 412 MUST, MUST, MUST...have every scrap of the sheet metal...or you WILL burn up...always. That big duct for the fan....you must have...or it can burn up in hours or minutes.

Basically you were sucking in 150 degree plus air off of the muffler. You need to find a pair of heat exchangers (those manifolds that are your headers)...that still have sheet metal covers. Without those covers.....you are baking your heads. Your CHTs will be off the chart.

A bus transmission is worthless. The gearing is so wrong that the car will not be able to get out of its own way. The automatic is far, far, far, far, far better than a bus transmission in a 412.

The 411 and 412 ran high final drive ratios. The 4 speed ran 3.73:1 or 3.90:1 final drive ratio with a 1:1 4th.

The automatic ...which is the same as a type 3 ran 3.67:1 final drive or 3.90:1 final drive.

And aside from all of that the bus transmission ...even if it had the right ratios...will not physically fit without LOTS of not easy fabrication. The type 4 four speed trans was unique to the vehicle. It has a totally different tailcone location and is a straight shot up the tunnel.
Neither the bug or bus matches that. You will need to go up over the rear cross member...cut the body...make a relay lever exchange to get back down to level to connect to a shift rod.

All of the original holes are there in the automatic car in the pedal cluster to put in the pedal and clutch slave. Look around in the classifieds and you can find manual trans pedal clusters....

Your original engine...which was the same as the Porsche 914 1.7l....down to the last part #.... had 8.2:1 compression with 82hp. It did this with domed pistons which are unobtanium....but there is an NOS set on Ebay...or was last week....that the guy wants $900 for...simply becasue he knows they ALSO fit a Porsche 914 Rolling Eyes

You NEED to dump that crappy center mounted 2 barrel .They will never run right on this engine. No manifold heat and very poor atomization. Get a pair of single barrel carbs or duals on short manifolds.

These are really nice cars. 100 laps should be no issue at all in a well tuned 411 or 412.

I read the article that noted this is an unknown engine....probably for a bus? The bus engine...compared to what came in the car originally was a detuned, low compression hot running mess. Suited for a bus....but not for your car.

Tell us what you plan and what your budget is and we can help. Ray
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 14, 2017 11:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

By the eay.....I was so thrilled to see someone racing one of these. If the last guy got away with lightly racing one of these with what they came with stock.....what I am running for suspension mods....very affordable and doable....would blow the previous owners mind.

You should read my front suspension links. Post them tomorrow. About $500 to $600 max would fix you right up.

I am hoping you plan to do more than just make this a track beater. These are really nice cars. If you do it right....you can still excel in this track event and still have a nice streetable car. Ray
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oprn
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:10 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

I read the article on this race and now seeing the lack of tins I am totally amazed that this engine actually kept running that long!

Do you think there will be anything salvageable in this engine Ray?
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:20 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
I read the article on this race and now seeing the lack of tins I am totally amazed that this engine actually kept running that long!

Do you think there will be anything salvageable in this engine Ray?


That really depends on how much and how long it was overheated. Of course....the main worry is the case. Excellent cases for type 4 do not grow on trees these days. If it were actually a normal mileage 411/412 engjjne......I would be less worried over a couple of hundred miles of hard running.

That being said.....I think the article noted that it was a bus or type 4 engine of unknown life....so.....it may have already had achard life.

I am betting from the overheating that the pistons are shot/scuffed. The heads are suspect anyway if they have ever been run in a bus....and now with this overheating....very suspect.

The crank and rods if there were no oil pressure loss and overheating to the point of blueing....maybe those can be saved.
Ray
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 28, 2017 7:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

The OP said there was a rod knocking...

Should be a good selection of nuts and washers!

It really bothers me to see rare old cars abused needlessly by hacks. All they had to do was put all the pieces back in the engine bay before they ran it. Now likely nothing in there will be usable.

I guess we can't save them all though, limited time and funds.

I ended up with a '70 type 4 square back 4 speed standard that is 98% complete and runs just to save it from a guy that wanted to take the gas axe to the body so he could rip around the back fields with it.

I resold it to a kid who wanted it bad, reverse stopped working and he could not interest anyone in fixing it so he got frustrated and started breaking widows. That's when I stepped in and gave him his money back.

No idea what I am going to do with it as I don't have the time or interest to restore it properly. Too many other projects already.

So it sits in the hay shed...
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 8:29 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
The OP said there was a rod knocking...

Should be a good selection of nuts and washers!

It really bothers me to see rare old cars abused needlessly by hacks. All they had to do was put all the pieces back in the engine bay before they ran it. Now likely nothing in there will be usable.

I guess we can't save them all though, limited time and funds.

I ended up with a '70 type 4 square back 4 speed standard that is 98% complete and runs just to save it from a guy that wanted to take the gas axe to the body so he could rip around the back fields with it.

I resold it to a kid who wanted it bad, reverse stopped working and he could not interest anyone in fixing it so he got frustrated and started breaking widows. That's when I stepped in and gave him his money back.

No idea what I am going to do with it as I don't have the time or interest to restore it properly. Too many other projects already.

So it sits in the hay shed...


I had almost the same train of thought in my first post in this thread.

While I fulky realize the limitations of the race in question.....here is a good basic write up of the race history and its rules.....
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/24_Hours_of_LeMons

In the case of a car that is actually fairly rare....I hate to see the car itself abused due to this kind of race. The $500 limit...short of brakes, lights and saftey equipment....basics.....pretty much insured that this car would self destruct. When you buy an incomplete junkyard 411 or 412....for a race with a $500 max car cost....even if you almost got the car with an engine for free....the low cost pretty much insures that it will not even have an engine with an operating cooling system.....as compared to thousands of car's I can buy in junkyards whose interiors and all instruments and glass are long gone, the outside is rusted and bent....but just need hoses and gaskets to have at least a functional cooling system.

I would rather see the owners of hard to find cars like this...even when they are a basket case that may never have a street life again.....seriously.....for the sake of the car.....like the member from a few years back over on the STF from the Netherlands who prepped a two door 412 for road racing and gave it the best shot and faired well.

Its a waste of a hard to find vehicle just due to the financial rules of this particular race.
Ray
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 12:58 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

There is a used 914 engine with Delorto carburetors in the classifieds . If it needs repair maybe it would be a good core .
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

Heh, my budget is preferably under the $500 lemons limit budget. I'm sure there are ways to make this a fast car, but the series rules won't allow it, heh. No dumping $500 into the suspension alone. As inexpensive as is advisable is key. Obviously, I don't want to put junk on that's just going to fail again, but that's sort of the series' schtick. Oddly, it was pretty good as is? Slow, but solid.

I think I'll just keep it mostly stock for now and then possibly do with upgrades on down the line. The cars it's up against aren't really lighting the world on fire with performance.

Goal #1 is to get it running again. Just running. Decently. Surprisingly, I don't think it overheated all that much. I couldn't find a rod knock when I got the engine running here. Only the right side had low compression (52 in #1, 0 in #2 which was all kinds of bad), and it really just looks like I'll be able to replace the pistons and cylinders and have a working engine again. Head looked okay, believe it or not.

And, um, I've got to put the durn pins back on. Finally have a lead, though. Pieces are en route already.

I'd like to throw on an oil cooler and see what happens. There's a temp gauge inside that we adhered to for most of the first chunk of the race, so we'll be watching that again to know if and when to pull it off track if it's still having issues.

Any suggestions on where to find a solid but inexpensive piston and cylinder set that will run fine? And advice on adding an oil cooler?
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raygreenwood
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 29, 2017 9:23 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

ninjacoco wrote:
Heh, my budget is preferably under the $500 lemons limit budget. I'm sure there are ways to make this a fast car, but the series rules won't allow it, heh. No dumping $500 into the suspension alone. As inexpensive as is advisable is key. Obviously, I don't want to put junk on that's just going to fail again, but that's sort of the series' schtick. Oddly, it was pretty good as is? Slow, but solid.

I think I'll just keep it mostly stock for now and then possibly do with upgrades on down the line. The cars it's up against aren't really lighting the world on fire with performance.

Goal #1 is to get it running again. Just running. Decently. Surprisingly, I don't think it overheated all that much. I couldn't find a rod knock when I got the engine running here. Only the right side had low compression (52 in #1, 0 in #2 which was all kinds of bad), and it really just looks like I'll be able to replace the pistons and cylinders and have a working engine again. Head looked okay, believe it or not.

And, um, I've got to put the durn pins back on. Finally have a lead, though. Pieces are en route already.

I'd like to throw on an oil cooler and see what happens. There's a temp gauge inside that we adhered to for most of the first chunk of the race, so we'll be watching that again to know if and when to pull it off track if it's still having issues.

Any suggestions on where to find a solid but inexpensive piston and cylinder set that will run fine? And advice on adding an oil cooler?


Uh......you are not getting it. With that kind of compression....the pistons and likely the heads are junk. Not readily rebuildable without aerious welding, machine work and re-annealing = $$$$.

You cannot even begin to do bone stock.....for less than about $2000. And thats just a basic stock engine with all of your own labor and machine work...and a few uaed parts. Just well done, rebuilt stock heads.....will run $800-1200 a pair.

And no...well tuned...they really are not that slow.

So.....basically you are building a short life beater with 100% junkyard parts right?...yeah...you have no choice.

Unless you get lucky and find a solid complete running engine...with a complete cooling system and all sheet metal and gaskets and twin carbs for under you $500 budget......not likely when complete core stripped cases...no crank, rod, cams, heads......go for $200+.

You guys should do some homework on these engines. Sorry....making it any kind of reliable is not going to fit your budget.

Also.....an external oil cooler is 100% unnecessary. Your high oil temps are caused by complete lack of a cooling system and associated ducting on the engine.....and low compression. These engines are readily road raced in 2.0L stock form and up to 2.2l...with no external oil cooler required. Think about that.

Good luck! Try not to trash an otherwise rare and unique car. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:25 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

I don't think you understand the series that this runs in. The point isn't to run a pricey a top-shelf racing engine that's gonna dominate—the point is to get a workable, running car that goes on the track. It's not going to light the world on fire with the automatic transmission still in it, regardless.

Telling me it can't be done under $2,000 doesn't jive with the number of 914s I see in the same series. If you think this is all sacrilege, neat. Feel free to unfollow. But so far, the 914 crowd seems a bit more helpful, to be honest.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:25 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

ninjacoco wrote:
I don't think you understand the series that this runs in. The point isn't to run a pricey a top-shelf racing engine that's gonna dominate—the point is to get a workable, running car that goes on the track. It's not going to light the world on fire with the automatic transmission still in it, regardless.

Telling me it can't be done under $2,000 doesn't jive with the number of 914s I see in the same series. If you think this is all sacrilege, neat. Feel free to unfollow. But so far, the 914 crowd seems a bit more helpful, to be honest.


I dont think you understand what I just wrote...... Rolling Eyes

What pricey racing engine are you speaking of?

A BONE STOCK.....82 hp 1.7L engine....which is what came in that car or a bone stock 1.8L.....even one that is an underpowered hot running lump of crap from a bus......will run you a minimum.....if you are capable ot all of your own work except machine work... for basic rebuild cost if you have nothing but a crank, rods, engine case and oil pump to start with...which is what it sounds like you have......is about $2000.

These engines have no parts in common with a type 1 beetle engine. There are no aftermarket engine cases made. You can use type 1 oil pumps with a lot of work.

There are new head castings made.....but again.....$800 to 1200 for a set. About $2000 for a set of the very best heads with new casting and new hardware that can run favyory lifespan....and these are stock.

A set of barely adequate (not for high miles)...set of rebuilds IF IF...your cores can be reworked.....and in this day and age 90% of them that have NOT been overheated like yours.....require new valve seats and welding.....you may get away with $650.....if you can find anyone who will work on them.

The most common and cheapest set of pistons and cylinders start at $295. Gasket sets at about $65-75....front and rear seal set a about $30. Its about $60-80 for main bdaring sets....even crappy ones...and about $35 for rod bearing,sets.....and you arecpushing $500 right there with no heads, valves rod work or anything.

The aircooled VW industry has not been a cheap parts source hobby for a number of years now. The vast majority of parts made are made for type 1 engines. About 75% of those are poor in quality and take lots of time, knowledge and work to make usable. The rest of the parts....the good parts.....are VERY expensive relative to what they were a decade ago.

Only a few percentage points of all of the parts built...are for type 4 engines like you are working with. And.....they are not cheap.

Bear in mind....as I noted....this is not a watercooled engine. Any sloppy mechanic can build a watercooled engine for cheap. As long as the lowest level of sealing is done on the heads, water pump and cooling system are accomplished....and you can get some level of fuel and spark to it with even wide ranging compression with a working oil pump......it will run for at least a couple hundred miles.

The aircooled engine in general and the type 4 engine specifically.....is cooled by air and oil.

And....the type 4 cooling system is different than the type 3 system. You must have everg piece of sheet metal shrouding the engine came with....you cannot have a single piece missing......or even in stock usage it will live a short life. With performance usage.....it can burn up in an hour or two.
Fuel mixture is critical to cooling the heads.....and you cannot accomplish useful fuel mixture with that crappy doorstop of a centermounted carb. You can get away with it for just crawling around town in a bus....but it will kill you quick in performance driving.

Other items....you need to be sure the engine has the factory windage tray....and bus engines did not come with it. Only 411/412 and 914. You need to be sure that whatever you do with the oil pump....it has correct oil pressure and not excessive oil pressure. Excessive oil pressure from using excessive oil viscosity like 20-50.....causes oil cooler bypass on type 4 engines.......and oil pressure is NOT the critical "must monitor" item. Cylinder head temperature is. They are cooled by air only and very quickly can end up over 400°F.....which drops valves, blows head sealing due to expansion and causes valve seat recession or fall out in older used heads.

As I noted....you should research what you are playing with.

This is not a beetle engine. It has different issues than a beetle engine....and is easily 2.5X the cost of a beetle engine even for the crappiest build....and beetle engines are no longer cheap either.

By the way...the engine your 411 came with had 82hp from the factory....sane as the enginecin the 914. The bus version of it had about 68 and was set up for gearing that was very low for moving a 4000 lb loaf,shaped vehicle around slowly.

That same engine...82hp.....with very minor but careful mods....with a high geared 4 speed trans like mine has.....easily runs 8-9 seconds 0-60.....and easily keeps up with my 2012 Golf with five speed and 5 cylinder.

Your best bet if you are going to be able to make the $500 cut-off and run with any reliability....is to look for a COMPLETE engine with twin carbs....and probably a low hp bus engine. If it does not have all of the sheet metal.....it is 100% assured you will burn it up again.

You note that you had 52 psi for compression on one side and 0 psi on another......and you think you just need pistons and cylinders?...... Laughing .....really...tear it down.....I will bet you that you need valves and or have the cylinder seating burn areas due to the head gasket burning through (which should be deleted and cylinders lapped into heads).

Tear it down and show us what you have and start measuring. We will help if we can. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

Remove the engine and tear down for inspection maybe you will get lucky . Have you figured out what cylinder is noisey .
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 9:38 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

vwoldbug wrote:
Remove the engine and tear down for inspection maybe you will get lucky . Have you figured out what cylinder is noisey .


Yes....really....tear it down. maybe you will get lucky.

A best case scenario is that the loss of compression is due to a burned valve...most probable cause for the "0" compression reading.

The other probable cause for the low compression cylinder...52 psi....is either cracked rings or scuffed piston or both. Also..what are the other two compression readings?

Its possible that you just have loose heads and blown head gaskets. The head gaskets were deleted by teh factory and there is a service bulletin out there about this. They lose compression seal over time and create a hot gas jet burn through.

If that is what happened...if you are very lucky it did not burn the head side. Of that happened the head cannot be saved even with welding. But if its just starting....and thats all you have along with a burned or sticking valve...and if your valve guides are at least decent....

Then test the heads by looking for cracks....and if no cracks..strip them clean as you can and put them in an oven to 400F. Let them soak for 30 minutes and then with gloves pull them out and drop them on a block of wood...cylinder side down from about 6-8" height. Then with gloves feel around the valve seats. If there is no valve seat movement and no valve seats fall out....just get some exhaust valves if the intakes are in good shape and have all the valves re-cut. You may get away with murder.

The cylinders and pistons....if this is still anywhere near stock....and I do not remember which engine size.....if you are lucky....its still a 1.7L and maybe has teh factory domed 1.7L 914/411/412 pistons. If those measure to not have excessive ring grooves...and even then you can use them for what you want to do... if the skirts are not collapsed or scuffed....and next best lucky is maybe a 1.8L with the shallow dish piston from a 412 or 914....same issues apply.

The mains and rods bearings....check them carefully. If they still have life...use those...instead of whats available now.

For the cam.....I have ...a Web #73....with less than 80k miles on it. Very pristine. Still has factory phosphate on it....and 0 wear. It needs a gear. You can probably buy one used for $30-ish.

I have the original Johnson lifters for it from 1995....also pristine. The problem is that the lifters were not marked to the lobes when I took them out. The engine destroyed its cam gear on the oil pump housing. I never planned to use the cam again...so I did not bother with keeping the lifters in order. After they came out...looking at how nice they were...that was am mistake.

But....they will run just fine. You may get excessive wear ...and maybe not....but they will more than last several races.

I will give these to you...if you do this thing right. Wink

If you need valve springs and retainers...you can have my old springs and retainers as well. They are single HD Chevy springs modified for type 4.

Also we can show you how to make and set up the solid rocker spacers you will need for this.

Also...you have to keep this as stock as possible...in order to use your stock pushrods. If not...a new set of pushrods will run you 100-ish...and these engines..especially with cobbled together heads....do not last long when valve geometry is not correct. It can last thousands of miles...or die in 100 miles from a cracked valve guide.


Understand...we are not being negative toward your effort. Its just that its clear you do not understand what you are dealing with. We can and will help...just do the diligence. There is no simple or cheap alternative for $500. Its going to take some careful work...but it can be done depending on what you have left. Ray
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

Ah! I thought you were going to use this car on the road! My mistake!

Ray is dead right about what it would cost to get any reasonable amount of miles out of that engine with new parts. The only way you are going to even get it to run again within that budget is with donated used parts and a lot of careful assembly.

Oh and don't forget - a COMPLETE cooling system not the hacked mess you have now.

I have a used 1.7 L Bus head (it's mate is cracked) that you could have and a complete set of Bus carbs with linkage and air cleaner that need serious cleaning. I would be glad to send them to you but the shipping would burn up more than half of your $500 budget.

If you were involved in the original prep for this car do you have access to the original engine and the missing cooling system parts? That would be an excellent place to start.

Years ago Dad had a '63 beetle with no engine to get rid of so we took all of our 36 hp used parts and spread them out, picked the best ones including used rings and bearings and built an engine that ran surprisingly well. I stumbled on to that car 2 years later and it was still running fine. It can be done.

Mind you it did have a complete cooling system when we were finished!

Look up the Junk Engine Build on STF for tips on what to look for in useable used parts.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 30, 2017 7:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

On second thought, I have a beat up rusty 944 here that the engine runs pretty well in that you could have for $500. Just double clutch 2nd and 3rd gear(1st, 4th and 5th syncros are fine), ignore the shakes and rattles and you are golden!
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cdickman1
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Joined: December 18, 2016
Posts: 4
Location: Sacramento, CA
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 11:24 am    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

I was the one who built this car for the track.

The car was given to me free, with the express condition that I run it in LeMons and give it back to the original owner. Once the race got close he was no longer interested, so I passed it along to the current owner to give it another shot at glory in life.

I spent two years trying to find the proper tins for this car. Multiple people stepped up then vanished into thin air when trying to actually pick them up. When you tell someone it is a type 4 tins you are looking for they look at you like you are insane at swap meets.

I failed in the biggest way on the motor though, an oil cooler would have saved this engine, I just ran out of time prior to the race to do so.

I tried to sell items from the car local that I knew were hard to find still in the world, door panels which were in great shape (and still in the car), front seats, back seat, electronics, etc. Not a single call for months on the posted ad, at some point storing junk in a little house gets overwhelming, so it went straight to the garbage can. I have still have two Tupperware bins of the heater, electronic switches, misc parts that I know are impossible to find that I kept in hopes of passing them on to an enthusiast. I would be willing to trade for the proper tins to help Stef out if anyone here wants that stuff. PM me if you want more details

The car has a bad Earl Scheib paint job on it that looks fantastic in pictures but is hiding a lot of the real condition of the car. There is patched up rust in the floors, the bottoms of the doors are rotted out, etc.

I bought 4 NOS master cylinders, rebuild kits, all the seals were shot, all leaked. After funding a couple of ebay and forum members here children's college fund I ripped out the original master and installed a Wilwood dual with a bias bar because it was new and cost like $179 bucks, one fourth of what I spent on NOS junk.

The front suspension needed a new steering link, 6 months to find a NOS piece that wasn't junk.

This was a long road to get it to run 250 miles but it achieved it's purpose when under my care.

I pieced it together for around $700 of non budget exempt parts, of course it's not going to last. The goal was to see how far you could make it last with unknown parts.

The motor I brought was a CL find that fired up when I tried so I didn't mess with it. Same goes for the transaxle, it shifted so why take it apart.

It was a basket case free car, and I had an awesome time racing it. Can't wait to see it go here in a couple of weeks again.
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oprn
Samba Member


Joined: November 13, 2016
Posts: 12632
Location: Western Canada
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 3:26 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

I must admit the car does look a lot better in the pictures than you describe. I wish I was closer and I would trade you what I have for the original seat belts from that car.
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raygreenwood
Samba Member


Joined: November 24, 2008
Posts: 21474
Location: Oklahoma City
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 31, 2017 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

cdickman1 wrote:
I was the one who built this car for the track.

The car was given to me free, with the express condition that I run it in LeMons and give it back to the original owner. Once the race got close he was no longer interested, so I passed it along to the current owner to give it another shot at glory in life.

I spent two years trying to find the proper tins for this car. Multiple people stepped up then vanished into thin air when trying to actually pick them up. When you tell someone it is a type 4 tins you are looking for they look at you like you are insane at swap meets.

I failed in the biggest way on the motor though, an oil cooler would have saved this engine, I just ran out of time prior to the race to do so.

I tried to sell items from the car local that I knew were hard to find still in the world, door panels which were in great shape (and still in the car), front seats, back seat, electronics, etc. Not a single call for months on the posted ad, at some point storing junk in a little house gets overwhelming, so it went straight to the garbage can. I have still have two Tupperware bins of the heater, electronic switches, misc parts that I know are impossible to find that I kept in hopes of passing them on to an enthusiast. I would be willing to trade for the proper tins to help Stef out if anyone here wants that stuff. PM me if you want more details

The car has a bad Earl Scheib paint job on it that looks fantastic in pictures but is hiding a lot of the real condition of the car. There is patched up rust in the floors, the bottoms of the doors are rotted out, etc.

I bought 4 NOS master cylinders, rebuild kits, all the seals were shot, all leaked. After funding a couple of ebay and forum members here children's college fund I ripped out the original master and installed a Wilwood dual with a bias bar because it was new and cost like $179 bucks, one fourth of what I spent on NOS junk.

The front suspension needed a new steering link, 6 months to find a NOS piece that wasn't junk.

This was a long road to get it to run 250 miles but it achieved it's purpose when under my care.

I pieced it together for around $700 of non budget exempt parts, of course it's not going to last. The goal was to see how far you could make it last with unknown parts.

The motor I brought was a CL find that fired up when I tried so I didn't mess with it. Same goes for the transaxle, it shifted so why take it apart.

It was a basket case free car, and I had an awesome time racing it. Can't wait to see it go here in a couple of weeks again.


And....With out any real knowledge of the car....you did very well!

A couple of items....no....an oil cooler would not have saved you. These engines...for what you were doing and in the configuration you have...have all the oil cooler they need.....really.

You overheated the heads.....period. Without the cooling tins.....its the heads that overheat. You can run oil temps in the 225 range all the time. Thats just a shorter oil change interval. But without tins.....your heads were guaranteed to be over 400°....a lot. That also makes for high oil temps....but the engine will die of head temps LONG before it dies of oil temp.

I cannot understand why you had a hard time getting tin. Even bus tin could work. Lots for sale here on the Samba. Virtually any type 4 tin except for Porsche 914 could be made to work with little effort.

The NOS master cylinder issue....I have been warning people of for years. It is no matter what make or model of car. If the cylinder has more than five years on the shelf the seals.....not the pistons and bore....are shot.

NOS centerlinks are junk. I have a how to pictorial on this forum of how to rebuild the centerlink better than factory...for about $20....with bronze parts and no machine work. I also have virtually a whole front end upgrade how to here. Short of having to buy strut cartridges from and Audi 4000....and if you can machine a couple stub adapters.....you get about a 200% handling upgrade with correct valving. with about .9 to 1.5" lowering in the front end.

You can increase rear handling with a junkyard sourced factory extra rear sway bar and using common beetle or Pro-thane links to add the double sway bar mod to the rear end.

There is virtually nothing we do not have both replacement options or ugrade options for front and rear suspension. If you have any fabrication skills at all....you can upgrade your suspension enough for cheap....to out handle my 2012 Golf.....no kidding!

Aside from the tins....that center mounted carb is killing you.

Oh....and if you do not know this.....its time to spend $25 on seals for between the automatic section of the trans and the differential. 100% of them will die drom this failure eventually. The factory limit was 7 years or 70k miles. When the mainshaft seal fails.....because its hard to be good for both Dexron and gear oil....it pours ATF in the differential.....and death is mysterious and quick. Ray
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zabo
Samba Member


Joined: May 24, 2005
Posts: 1195
Location: ATL
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 04, 2017 12:18 pm    Post subject: Re: Rebuilding The 411 Race Car, Help! Reply with quote

dang ray -nice of you to give such thoughtful responses.

@ninjacoco what advice has the 914 crowd been giving you?
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