Hello! Log in or Register   |  Help  |  Donate  |  Buy Shirts  See all banner ads | Advertise on TheSamba.com  
TheSamba.com
 
Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels
Page: 1, 2, 3  Next
Forum Index -> Vanagon Share: Facebook Twitter
Reply to topic
Print View
Quick sort: Show newest posts on top | Show oldest posts on top View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
DanHoug
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 1814
Location: Bemidji, MN
DanHoug is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:46 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

the 2 two MN people died from CO poisoning due to using a genset in an unvented compartment in their RV. well it WAS vented with leaks to the interior.

more on the CO levels from the Buddy. while my home CO detector in the van did not spike off of zero, i recently used an industrial CO monitor and held it in the heat above the Buddy while on. it registered as high as 19ppm CO. fairly low from an exposure standpoint, turning on the stove to cook something generates WAY more CO (up to 1600ppm) but it is all good to be aware of. bottom line: don't sleep with an unvented heater or the stove on.

an important aspect of CO is to remember it is a true chemical poison vs the effect from lowered oxygen, which is 'merely' suffocation. the key difference being you can die from a 1 minute exposure to very high CO (above 12,000ppm), similar to orally ingesting a poison.

-dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
djkeev Premium Member
Samba Moderator


Joined: September 30, 2007
Posts: 24899
Location: North West New Jersey
djkeev is offline 

PostPosted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 8:20 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

They all died nice and warm though....... 🤔

Dave
_________________
Stop Dead Photo Links how to post photos

Ghia
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=392473

Vanagon
http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?p=6315537#6315537

Beetle
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=482968&highlight=74+super+vert
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dobryan
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 11672
Location: Brookeville, MD
dobryan is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 5:35 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

There is a term called survivor bias. Those that say ‘I survived that behavior’ are never countered by those that are dead from it...
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

Join the Vanagon Rescue Squad on the VanAlert app.
http://vanalert.com/

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Paulbeard
Samba Member


Joined: July 10, 2015
Posts: 2588
Location: Seattle
Paulbeard is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 4:06 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

pinetreeporsche wrote:



Anyone heard of a person or persons who died in a VW or another larger van, from combustion products??


You know you can search for this kind of information?


Quote:
A family at the Speedway this weekend didn't expect a deadly gas to fill their camper. One person died and several more were hurt when carbon monoxide filled their camper outside the Indianapolis 500 Sunday.

Four family members went to sleep in an RV Saturday night. Sunday morning one of them, 43-year-old Michael Thies, never woke up. The other three in the RV were hospitalized with carbon monoxide poisoning. — https://www.wthr.com/article/rv-tips-to-prevent-carbon-monoxide-poisoning


Quote:
Deputies say 75-year-old William E. Miller of Windber, Pa., was pronounced dead Thursday morning at his RV. His wife, 76-year-old, Ruth L. Miller, was taken to a hospital in Cumberland. — http://baltimore.cbslocal.com/2013/08/08/camper-dies-from-carbon-monoxide-poisoning/


Quote:
Two Cloquet residents died of possible carbon monoxide poisoning in their camper on Saturday morning near Brookston, Minn..

The St. Louis County sheriff’s office reported that Richard Smith, 67, and Pamela Smith, 65, were found unresponsive in their camper at 7:19 a.m. Saturday. Despite rescue efforts by friends and first responders, they were pronounced dead at the scene, according to the sheriff’s office. - http://www.twincities.com/2017/06/05/in-northeast-...poisoning/

_________________
Currently -> Frida: 87 Tizian Red (mostly) Vanagon GL Westfalia w/ 2.0L ABA conversion
Formerly -> Steward of a 73 Super Beetle (Beater) and 67 Beetle 1300 (Little Max) both names by POs

Quote:
Git 'r DONE!
— dhaavers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
pinetreeporsche
Samba Member


Joined: June 11, 2009
Posts: 659
Location: Falls Church, VA
pinetreeporsche is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:55 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
There are about 5000 CO poisoning incidents a year in U.S. And 500 fatalities.


Anyone heard of a person or persons who died in a VW or another larger van, from combustion products??
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Classifieds Feedback
dobryan
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 11672
Location: Brookeville, MD
dobryan is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 3:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Glad to hear that you are not sleeping with a little buddy running. I look forward
to your posts for many years. 😀
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

Join the Vanagon Rescue Squad on the VanAlert app.
http://vanalert.com/

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Steve M.
Samba Member


Joined: July 30, 2013
Posts: 4922
Location: Floating around.
Steve M. is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:44 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

I was just going to say about snowing and the build up blocking your "vent" windows sealing you inside with your exhaust gases...one picture worth a thousand words if the problem is understood.
_________________
This free advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

There are seven days in a week. Someday is not one of them.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Tom Powell
Samba Member


Joined: December 01, 2005
Posts: 4855
Location: Kaneohe
Tom Powell is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 12:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Image may have been reduced in size. Click image to view fullscreen.

Aloha
tp
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
shagginwagon83
Samba Member


Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 2630
Location: VA/TN
shagginwagon83 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:55 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

raoul mitgong wrote:
Shaggin,

One byproduct of burning hydrocarbons is H2O. No way around that. You are pumping water into the cabin with a Buddy. The propex/espar/webasto has a heat exchanger so the heat is sent into the cabin while the water, CO, CO2, and other byproducts are sent out the exhaust tube to the outside.

All that Buddy water will condensate on your windows, metal panels, behind the kitchen, door seals, etc. Bad things that can happen with the Buddy are;
1. Freezing your doors shut.
2. Speeding up the rusting of your van.
3. Getting poisoned/killed if there is a failure in your equipment.

If you don't have the $ for a Propex, try to find a friend with a house or apartment that would be willing to run an extension cord out a window to your van. Help with their utilities and they might be stoked. Use a small electric heater with a thermostat (these are cheap) and sleep dry, warm, and safe.

-d


Thanks for the response. I am really concerned about the rusting of the van (and my life of course).

I just signed this week for my first full time job. I am living with the parents currently. I plan on doing the propex next fall or maybe early spring. I'll use my buddy as you guys suggested - not during sleep.
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - 1983.5 Ivory Westfalia 1.9L 2wd
120aH aux, 200w rooftop solar, 130w portable
Dometic CFX50W fridge
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
MarkWard
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2005
Posts: 12017
Location: Palm Beach County, Florida
MarkWard is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 11:18 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Before installing the Espar, we'd use the Little Buddy only to take the chill off in the evening before turning in. We'd light it and wait till the chill was out of the air and shut it off. If we were sitting up reading, if it cooled off too much, we would light it again. Seems we were getting 3 evenings out of a camp bottle with the Little Buddy using it this way.

Oddly, making coffee in the am, the westy stove actually puts out a lot of heat boiling water. It is not uncommon even on the coldest morning to see 70 degrees on the thermostat mounted on the spice rack over the stove. Don't use your stove for heat. Just saying it puts out some BTU's.
_________________
1982 Vanagon Camper with ALH TDI conversion.
1990 Vanagon Camper Syncro conversion.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2015
Posts: 657
Location: Berkeley Ca
ahmed.aboudan@gmail.com is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:36 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
Its going to equilibrate to outside temperature in about 1-2 hours. Cars are very poorly insulated.

Below freezing, you have to be both acclimatized and also healthy to sleep in a car without aux heat.


Wow 1-2 hrs. Crazy lots of thermal bridging I suppose. I was in Georgia this winter by the Ocoee River coldest morning Van was about 20 degrees. If the temp would climb into the 40-50 in the day it was doable if not it was hard. We ended up getting a little buddy and would run it about an hour or so in the evening then when we woke up. Sleeping in our bags was fine.

Still in such cold temperatures the whole experience becomes limited. Part of camping for me in the Westy is the outdoors. It can get quite small when limited to the inside of your van.

I learned alot from looking at how people camped in the South and many would have a simple tarp structure with a pot bellied stove, had many an interesting conversation with very nice people who I would not get to know, sweating in a tshirt drinking and listening to the gurgling creek. The stove was a great improvement to a open fire because of the chimney and the ability to be in a covered space.

I have an ARB awning and an add a room. I think that you could have a small army wood stove in that room with a silicon sleave. Lots of wood were we camp and nice dry heat. The stove is similar to the one that Camper Culture sells in the UK. You can get it here on ebay for about $40. With the slider open you would double your square footage and be super warm.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
kamzcab86
Samba Moderator


Joined: July 26, 2008
Posts: 6763
Location: Arizona
kamzcab86 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:25 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Abscate wrote:
At 45°F, use down or high tech synthetic stuff sleeping bag and you will be toasty without heaters being on


^This. I've camped in freezing temps -- good bag and fleece hat were all I needed after shutting the propane/butane heater off; in the morning, fire the heater back up to take the chill off while making cocoa. I would never run a portable gas heater while sleeping, regardless of alarms and other safety devices. 😕
_________________
~Kamz Anxious
1986 Cabriolet: www.Cabby-Info.com
Blue Vanagon 1990 Vanagon Westfalia: Old Blue's Blog
2016 Golf GTI S
"I fear the day that technology will surpass our human interaction; the world will have a generation of idiots." ~Albert Einstein
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website Gallery Classifieds Feedback
raoul mitgong
Samba Member


Joined: July 05, 2009
Posts: 1335
Location: Denver, CO
raoul mitgong is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Shaggin,

One byproduct of burning hydrocarbons is H2O. No way around that. You are pumping water into the cabin with a Buddy. The propex/espar/webasto has a heat exchanger so the heat is sent into the cabin while the water, CO, CO2, and other byproducts are sent out the exhaust tube to the outside.

All that Buddy water will condensate on your windows, metal panels, behind the kitchen, door seals, etc. Bad things that can happen with the Buddy are;
1. Freezing your doors shut.
2. Speeding up the rusting of your van.
3. Getting poisoned/killed if there is a failure in your equipment.

If you don't have the $ for a Propex, try to find a friend with a house or apartment that would be willing to run an extension cord out a window to your van. Help with their utilities and they might be stoked. Use a small electric heater with a thermostat (these are cheap) and sleep dry, warm, and safe.

-d
_________________
84 Westy with a 2.1 (Groover)
86 Tintop Syncro (Crow)
86 Tintop Syncro to Westy project (Tom Servo)
91 Westy (Only the top 12 inches of this van (a burn victim))
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 12982
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:41 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Its going to equilibrate to outside temperature in about 1-2 hours. Cars are very poorly insulated.

Below freezing, you have to be both acclimatized and also healthy to sleep in a car without aux heat.
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
[email protected]
Samba Member


Joined: April 29, 2015
Posts: 657
Location: Berkeley Ca
ahmed.aboudan@gmail.com is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

I would not sleep with it on. I would be worried about poisoning myself. If you were to leave it on I would keep a window cracked open. My second worry would be starting a fire. Not sure how you would alleviate that. Why not just crank it get temp up high then turn off and get into sleeping bag for the night? I'm sure plenty do keep it on all night but why? What would be the heat loss per hour? So if you get the van to say 80 degrees what would temp be 6 hrs later say with 30 degree outdoor temp?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Abscate Premium Member
Samba Member


Joined: October 05, 2014
Posts: 12982
Location: NYC/Upstate/ROW
Abscate is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:31 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Im with Dave on this one.

At 46F, use down or high tech synthetic stuff sleeping bag and you will be toasty without heaters being on, waiting to snuff you out.
_________________
.ssS!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
dobryan
Samba Member


Joined: March 24, 2006
Posts: 11672
Location: Brookeville, MD
dobryan is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:25 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Personally I would never sleep in a vehicle with a heater that left combustion products in the vehicle no matter how many CO or low O2 devices were there.

You are betting your life that they will not fail. Well, everything fails at some point, some sooner rather than later, do you feel lucky tonight, well do you..... (channel Clint Eastwood). I know folks say that they sleep with it on all the time and it has been fine. I am waiting for the dead family to post saying not to do it.....

I have a propex furnace style heater and am very happy with it. (I still have a CO alarm in the bus anyway.)
_________________
Dave O
'87 Westy w/ 2002 Subaru EJ25 and Peloquin TBD

"To travel hopefully is a better thing than to arrive." Robert Louis Stevenson

Join the Vanagon Rescue Squad on the VanAlert app.
http://vanalert.com/

MD>Canada>AK>WA>OR>CA>AZ>UT>WY>SD
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=620646

Building a bus for travel in Europe
https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=695371
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
shagginwagon83
Samba Member


Joined: February 07, 2016
Posts: 2630
Location: VA/TN
shagginwagon83 is offline 

PostPosted: Fri Nov 10, 2017 9:10 am    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Just wanted to update my experience.

I originally bought the Buddy Heater (4000, 9000 BTU settings) with 1 pound propane tank. It worked great, but I realized the want (not need) for more heat.

I sold my Buddy and bought the Big Buddy. Costed me $30 more than the Buddy. Anyway, with the Big Buddy I get double the Buddy - meaning the Buddy has one heat panel and the Big Buddy has two. With that, I now have 4k, 9k and 18k heat settings. I can now hold two 1 pound cans of propane. It also has a 6v DC fan built in, capable of running off D batteries. I bought a 12v->6v car charger, cut the end off, and spliced in a 2.5mm mono female jack so it runs off 12v battery.

I love my big buddy. I slept with it on at 4k setting at 45 degree weather. I stayed very warm. What do you guys think of sleeping with it on? With a carbon monoxide detector?

What I didn't like was the amount of condensation on the inside windows. I didn't like that at all! Do people experience this with the propex?

As far as carbon monoxide goes -> I originally bought the $90 CO/LP detector from Safe-T-Alert. The color looked great, but I did not like the idea of having to cut out interior for this bad boy. I also read that a lot of people were having 'false alarms' from charging batteries. And the unit seemed like it used a lot of power @ 110ma

I decided to buy the carbon monoxide detector that GoWesty GoWesty sells.

I did a reverse image search to find the unit on amazon for $20

Battery powered, no mount hole required.
_________________
Brandon
"Jo Ann" - 1983.5 Ivory Westfalia 1.9L 2wd
120aH aux, 200w rooftop solar, 130w portable
Dometic CFX50W fridge
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Instagram Gallery Classifieds Feedback
DanHoug
Samba Member


Joined: December 05, 2016
Posts: 1814
Location: Bemidji, MN
DanHoug is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:54 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

just got back from a camping trip using the Westy with the rear hatch add-a-room and a Buddy heater. it was great! wasn't real cold, maybe 48F but the Buddy worked great to take the chill off while we were in the van, even with the top popped and the breezy add-a-room. kept it on low until just before bed, then off all night. within reach for the morning so just snapped it on while laying in bed, high felt good. no condensation issues with the rear hatch open and the radiant heat still made for a very comfortable interior. i'm sold.

-dan
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Send e-mail Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Michael4104
Samba Member


Joined: February 09, 2014
Posts: 340
Location: Livermore, Ca
Michael4104 is offline 

PostPosted: Sun Oct 22, 2017 12:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Buddy heater, fridge, O2 and CO levels Reply with quote

Quote:

At the first U.S. Grand Prix in Indianapolis, four buddies came over from Europe. They rented a large motorhome and turned the heater on. They never woke up.

You need to give more information than what you posted. There are thousands of folks living in their motorhomes that use their heaters all the time, including me.
Motorhome and most RV's heaters exhaust to the outside. Where the men using some other device to heat the RV such as the stovetop?
_________________
1990 Wolfsburg Carat with new poptop.
1985 Westy now sporting a 1995 Jetta ABA 2.0L. Sold
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Gallery Classifieds Feedback
Display posts from previous:   
Reply to topic    Forum Index -> Vanagon All times are Mountain Standard Time/Pacific Daylight Savings Time
Page: 1, 2, 3  Next
Page 1 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

About | Help! | Advertise | Donate | Premium Membership | Privacy/Terms of Use | Contact Us | Site Map
Copyright © 1996-2020, Everett Barnes. All Rights Reserved.
Not affiliated with or sponsored by Volkswagen of America | Forum powered by phpBB