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bobbyblack 
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Location: United States, Iowa
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 Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:45 am Post subject: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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The DoubleCheese parts bus came with no tranny, and the fuel system had been dismantled. I was in no shape to put a tranny in, and recreate the fuel system just to see if I could start it. Now its on the floor of my shop, and I figured I would ask to see if anyone else has come up with a better idea than the one I am going to try.
I have a 091, starter, and the engine. I will give a whirl to see how bolting all that together, removing the spark plugs and see what the starter can spin the engine up to. I have an aftermarket pressure sender I can use.
Is there any point to testing this way? The engine is a complete mystery, but I do see that the floppy head gaskets are a bit cracked. Not sure of when that may have happened (if before it was towed to rest for a few years or during the long nap)
Also on the agenda is a compression test. Now, I know a test should be performed on a warm engine. I have a handful of 500 watt halogen shop lights that I plan to let shine from underneath for a couple hours, that could be warm enough, perhaps, or maybe the Big Buddy.
Suggestions, or more likely, I'd accept ridicule on this notion. I'd just like to find out somehow if the engine is in any way useful before tearing it down to parts.
Regards,
-bobby
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'87 Westy 'Flossie','86 Westy 'R1','86 tintop GL - Subi2.2 'J2','83.5 stock tintop L 'ZoomBus','74 Karmann Ghia, '63 Notch |
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MarkWard
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:55 am Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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No problem doing a compression test on a cold engine. You are looking for even pressures across the engine regardless of temp. That said, for an engine that has been sitting for a long time, unless it was "pickled" properly, is going to have surface rust on the cylinders and the valve seats. Rings will be dry and you probably won't get a good picture of engine condition with your starter rig.
As far as testing the oil pressure, again, you won't learn much from your starter test. Its a 2.1, condition unknown, history unknown, you describe head sealing problems.
I'd say, install the engine and see if you can get it running, or pull the heads, and then pull the cylinders and rods. This is going to give you your best picture of what you have and then you can decide from there.
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jberger
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 9:56 am Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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This test will not give you what you need to truly measure oil pressure... which would be full hot under load. You can have amazing cold pressure and very poor hot pressure. I would do a leak down test and if all good, install and run it. Not that big a deal to remove an engine again if need be. And who knows, you may get lucky.
J |
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 10:33 am Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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J
The leakdown is a good idea. I am nearly certain the big floppy head gasket is bad, but it would be good to see the general condition of the cylinder/head/piston environment before tearing the heads off.
I agree tho, I can't get it up to hot like under load, that is true.
I've never been much good at bottom end rebuilding. Splitting the case, in all my experiences, has been a no-finish deal. Although, those were all due to the condition of the crank, or case. So, I guess I only have bad experiences to go by rather than any other hunches.
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djkeev
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 11:30 am Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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if the engine is on the floor, by all means pull the heads!!!! yes, it means doing #$%#$ exhaust work but if the engine has potential to be good, it's going to need the head seal replaced anyway. just do it.
rent beg borrow buy an acetylene torch to get the exhaust nuts off with. it will greatly reduce the chance of breaking a stud, but even if you do, they are fairly easy to get out with a torch and vise grips so you might end up needing it either way. they'll usually break off at the nut and the stub is still there.
the show stoppers seem to be coolant pipe bolts. those snap close to the heads and are a bugger to get out so take your time on those, use heat and penetrating oil and tapping the bolt head with a hammer.
you don't really need to consider splitting the block. but perhaps think about using it as a core to do a connecting rod/piston rings/head gasket build up. pulling the rods will give you a very good idea of the crank condition and it makes getting the pistons out super easy as they'll stay on the rods using a wobble extension to get to the rod bolts.
-dan |
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
What is your time situation and money situation?
Dave |
The situation there is that The Cosmo rig (my kids') came home on a flatbed. Like kids do, they thought 10 more miles with a blinking coolant light wasn't too far. Bad bad choice. The deal is that Cosmo now sits where Flossie Winters! The full gasket rebuild kit is on the bench. There is a telltale bent pushrod tube and the engine will sputter to a start an die. They really really killed the (original?) engine. Bad choice on their part. So, its a TIME deal for ME, and for them, well, too bad if I have to put the tow bar on and pull it out soon'ish.
The money? Hmm... Funny how that works isn't it? The kids are living with nearly zero expenses right now, so they actually have more in the bank than I do. (They don't live with me any more tho, at least) But I don't think they will be putting a rod/bolt/ring rebuild into the mix.
Right now in the lineup are two unknown engines, and 1 known severely damaged one.
The kids are tearing down the one in the van. I suggested they take a look at it and they started, before anyone looked at the pushrods/tubes --- one is bent --- likely broken valve caused this, so thinking about looking at the piston tops to see if that is a non-start for basic build.
Here are the three:
#1 in Cosmo now
#2 sitting on floor from DoubleCheese parts rig
#3 longblock I snagged a while back as a possible spare, also unknown condition
Which leaves me with my running 2.1 in Flossie, and a EJ22 as my only option if I let them destroy my other options.. I don't like getting cornered
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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| DanHoug wrote: |
if the engine is on the floor, by all means pull the heads!!!! yes, it means doing #$%#$ exhaust work but if the engine has potential to be good, it's going to need the head seal replaced anyway. just do it.
rent beg borrow buy an acetylene torch to get the exhaust nuts off with.
you don't really need to consider splitting the block.
-dan |
Got a cutting/heating torch setup, checkmark
Exhaust teardown, no fun, also checkmark (third time is the charm?)
Head-reseal, gasket kit in hand, so checkmarkable
Rod rebuild with the 1.9 rod/bolts, not-yet-checkmarkable
Possibly up to 5 heads to choose from, I guess.
question at the far end.. how to tell if crank journals (not connecting rod ones) are good without splitting the case?
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djkeev
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Zeitgeist 13
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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From what I've been able to glean over the years, the 2.1WBX cranks don't wear their thrust surfaces quite like the old AC bottom ends. I'd think that if the rod journals looked good then the crank journals would likely be in similar condition. I'd be far more concerned about the cam lobes.
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djkeev
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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| djkeev wrote: |
BTW, don't be too harsh on them running with a warning light on.
Dave |
Noted, thanks.
Its a process of learning. I hope they do the Learning before I get too frustrated tho. I just get cranky thinking Flossie is getting rained on and starting to frost on her at night.. I guess I could put a tarp on her. But, I'd also like to keep driving her to work while the salt isn't on the roads yet. Some nights I have on-call duty, and can't afford the half hour of drive time to go home for a nap. I just drive Flossie and use lunch hour as nap time... I feel a little like a kindergartner again.
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djkeev
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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So, the general thinking here is that the bottom end is probably good in one of the three candidates... ZG brings up the cam lobe concern, which I have to think would be of greater concern in the one which bent the pushrod/tube. Maybe the hydraulic lifter saved the lobe?
I've been pondering how to get a "read" on the connecting rod and wrist pin condition in a minimally invasive manner.
Any way to tell by "feel" if there is play, heads off cylinders on, pistons in place? Any creative method to tell the 2 thousandths that would be unacceptable wear? Or is it less that that? I'm sure if it were more, it would be humanly possible to feel a clunk if pushing the piston down after the crank got to bottom dead center for each piston, but 2 thousandths? Not imaginable. Maybe there is a tool?
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djkeev
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bobbyblack
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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Dave,
I am good at unbolting things. I could do just that, and then I'd be sitting with a bench full of parts and no idea about what to do next. I am sure that if I had a few 1.9's around, I would have already done such a thing, and have the rods from those ready. It's all the finicky tiny-tolerance things that I balk at. I guess I have seen a Mic used a few times, and they are not that expensive. I guess I could find out what each rod journal measured and get proper replacement bearings sized in those 1.9 replacements. Or, I guess I could give the kids the Subaru ej22 and harness, and let them get the install kit from Kennedy. That would be so much easier than doing any of this myself.
But, I guess I'm just Dad here, and trying to help the kids figure out how to live life. Time to quit shaving the Yak, and get their rig out of my shop.
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djkeev
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:15 pm Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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you don't really need to get a 'read' on the con rod condition in a 2.1... just replace them with a reconditioned set with 1.9 non-stretch bolts and new bearing shells. we're talking $150. buy a cheap digital caliper and it will tell you close enough if the rod journals are stock size. if they look all shiny and polished without streaks or grooves, then go fer it. "they" say rod failure in the 2.1 can happen anytime around 165k miles, which the above work mitigates. i also know of many high mileage vans where this never happens.
or there's nothing wrong with just doing the head gaskets while the engine is out. you spend more, you get more assurance. or insurance as it is, against failures. it's all an odds game when there isn't critical teardown and examination. in the words of Dirty Harry... "Do you feel lucky, Punk? Well, do ya?" mission critical = do the most you can. kids van with AAA membership = do whatever.
nothing wrong with picking your best, low mileage core that looks the happiest, doing the minimum (which i consider head gaskets always), and trying it out with the understanding of the risks. i went the other direction hoping for another 100k miles.
-dan |
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djkeev
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DanHoug
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 4:16 am Post subject: Re: oil pressure test in non-running 2.1 WBX? |
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actually, Dave, i'm 100% on the same page as you. that's why i went down the Rabbit Hole and did this plus a ton of other stuff on my 'low mileage' 90k mile core. and i ended up with an engine with great hot oil pressure and should run reliably for another 100k.
but if he's feeling lucky, and it totally is luck, he could just do gaskets and slap it together to see what he has. spin the big wheel. there were many vanagons used for medical transport around here that did 400k miles without engine work other than head gaskets and water pumps. you and i are not comfortable with that approach but the payoff *might* be hardly any work for a serviceable engine. maybe. maybe not.
but i'm guessing he's going to pull a head and cry a little bit at the head corrosion. if i had to buy new heads, i wouldn't take a chance on the rods and i'd do everything right. too much money invested at that point to risk it. go big or go home.
-dan |
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