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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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 Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:26 am Post subject: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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I read a few posts at the forum about this topic but I still have some doubts.
My beetle is not charging the battery with the headlights on. I still havenīt finished all the possible tests to the charging system but so far I know the following:
-The battery fully charges with an external charger
-The battery charge is around 6.5V with the engine off and goes to around 7.6V with the engine running
-When I turn on the headlights the voltage drops to 6.7- 6.8V
-Cranking the engine the voltage drops to around 5.5V
-When the car is off the battery power consumption is 0 A
-Just turning the key the power comsumption goes to 1.3A
-Turning on the headlights the power comsumption goes to 12A
-With turning lights it goes from 2 to 5A
-Accelarating the engine with headlights on the voltage droped instead of increasing. However I must repeat this test because the voltage value was osclillating a lot and I want to test it with a different multimeter.
I still haven't tested the generator nor the regulator but I think the problem must be elsewhere.
Could it only be a ground problem?
I'm not sure about the normal values of power consumption but I think 1.3A only turning the key, from 2 to 5A with turning lights and 12A for the headlights is too much.
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Q-Dog
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Location: Sunset, Louisiana
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:37 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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I would clean up all wiring connections (including the grounds) and see what happens ... all it takes is time.
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Brian
'69 Dune Buggy
'69 Beetle Convertible
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Cusser
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Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:08 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
| I would clean up all wiring connections (including the grounds) and see what happens ... all it takes is time. |
Never a bad idea on a vehicle this old. Did this on my 1970 last year when I resurrected it.
jessousa - does your VW ever fail to start after a drive with the lights on? If not, maybe nothing to really worry about, I think the numbers you posted look pretty good.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 8:42 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
I'm not sure about the normal values of power consumption but I think 1.3A only turning the key, from 2 to 5A with turning lights and 12A for the headlights is too much. |
Why do you think that? Sounds pretty normal to me. Consider that when you have a 6 volt system, a device like a light bulb, which let's say is a 4 watt bulb, will draw twice the current as a 4 watt bulb would in a 12 volt system.
When you turn they key on you are powering up the two warning light bulbs, the ignition coil, and the choke heating element. Sounds to me like you are getting away pretty good with only 1.3A there.
You can calculate the approximate expected current draw from your lights by adding up the wattage of the bulbs and then dividing by the voltage. So for example if you have two 45-watt headlamp bulbs, that's 90 watts divided by 6.8V = 13A.
Another thing to keep in mind is that the generators on these cars don't really do much at idle. The engine needs to be above idle speed for the generator to really be able to keep up with the current draw from the headlights. If you drive around with your voltmeter connected, you'll see that when the engine is above idle speed the voltage will increase until it stabilizes at 7.2-7.5v or so, but if you stop with the engine idling and headlights on, you'll see the system voltage slowly start do go down as the headlights are discharging the battery.
You should definitely clean up all the connections, especially in the headlight circuit since that's a big power consumer - high current. Poor connections in that circuit can easily create heat and voltage drops.
Check your generator brushes out, make sure they both have plenty of life left.
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jessousa
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 11:03 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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Thank you all for your explanations.
| Quote: |
| Why do you think that? Sounds pretty normal to me |
My idea about power consumption came from a video posted by a brasilian guy and he had around 7A with headlights on. Maybe he had different light bulbs.
So this leaves me with the undercharging problem.
| Quote: |
| jessousa - does your VW ever fail to start after a drive with the lights on? |
| Quote: |
| Another thing to keep in mind is that the generators on these cars don't really do much at idle. The engine needs to be above idle speed for the generator to really be able to keep up with the current draw from the headlights. If you drive around with your voltmeter connected, you'll see that when the engine is above idle speed the voltage will increase until it stabilizes at 7.2-7.5v or so, but if you stop with the engine idling and headlights on, you'll see the system voltage slowly start do go down as the headlights are discharging the battery. |
When I go out in daylight there's no problem charging the battery. The generator light goes off. At night it's not the same. Even at high rev the light is always on. And if I stop the engine won't be able to crank it again because there's not enough power. As I wrote before I can only get 6.8V with headlights on and it starts to go up and down with high rev .
| Quote: |
| Check your generator brushes out, make sure they both have plenty of life left. |
I have already checked the brushes and they're still good.
So I'll go check and clean all connections and I'll let you know if things got better.
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bluebus86
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Joined: September 02, 2010
Posts: 11075
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:16 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
Thank you all for your explanations.
| Quote: |
| Why do you think that? Sounds pretty normal to me |
My idea about power consumption came from a video posted by a brasilian guy and he had around 7A with headlights on. Maybe he had different light bulbs.
So this leaves me with the undercharging problem.
| Quote: |
| jessousa - does your VW ever fail to start after a drive with the lights on? |
| Quote: |
| Another thing to keep in mind is that the generators on these cars don't really do much at idle. The engine needs to be above idle speed for the generator to really be able to keep up with the current draw from the headlights. If you drive around with your voltmeter connected, you'll see that when the engine is above idle speed the voltage will increase until it stabilizes at 7.2-7.5v or so, but if you stop with the engine idling and headlights on, you'll see the system voltage slowly start do go down as the headlights are discharging the battery. |
When I go out in daylight there's no problem charging the battery. The generator light goes off. At night it's not the same. Even at high rev the light is always on. And if I stop the engine won't be able to crank it again because there's not enough power. As I wrote before I can only get 6.8V with headlights on and it starts to go up and down with high rev .
| Quote: |
| Check your generator brushes out, make sure they both have plenty of life left. |
I have already checked the brushes and they're still good.
So I'll go check and clean all connections and I'll let you know if things got better. |
how did you determine the brushes are still good. they do need to extend above the brush holder, else they are worn too much
eninge power consumption goes up with rpm, but so should generator output.
glowing of the generator light with turn on headlights could be a charge problem but also could be an issue of poor comnections (ie voltage drops) in the warning light circuit, the Bentely Offical Service manual discribes how to diagnois a glowing generator lamp, be it glowing becuase of bad connections to the bulb, or a real generator issue.
it is normal for battery voltage to make a huge drop when cranking the starter. a marginal solinod on the starter can also cause probelms, you canmease the drop across solinoid while cranking.
you may have a failing regulator or generator. please check the brushes for hieght out of the holders also test if the voltage goes up if you push the brushed in with an insualted stick while running, if voltage goes up, then brushes are suspect.
you may wish to open up the regulator and inspect for dirty or arced contacts, a sure sign that the regulator has problems. please a upon reassembly put a dot of sealer back over the lids mounting screw, this keeps the regulator splash proof, else water gets in around the screw.
anyway the Bentely book has lots of good info on the warning lights and how to test its circut with a long jumper wire from the regulator to the light.
but is seems your battery is not getting fully charged, but on a car this old, there are likely several electric issues.
good luck!
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Cusser
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Joined: October 02, 2006
Posts: 31379
Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| Cusser wrote: |
| jessousa - does your VW ever fail to start after a drive with the lights on? If not, maybe nothing to really worry about, I think the numbers you posted look pretty good. |
| jessousa wrote: |
| When I go out in daylight there's no problem charging the battery. The generator light goes off. At night it's not the same. Even at high rev the light is always on. And if I stop the engine won't be able to crank it again because there's not enough power. |
Aha !!! More information !!!
If your connections are all good, clean, and tight, and your wiring is all OK, then sounds like a charging issue - warning light on and not able to re-start it after driving with headlights on. So check generator brushes, but I think a new generator with regulator is in your future.
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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sjbartnik
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Joined: September 01, 2011
Posts: 5998
Location: Brooklyn
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 12:42 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
Thank you all for your explanations.
| Quote: |
| Why do you think that? Sounds pretty normal to me |
My idea about power consumption came from a video posted by a brasilian guy and he had around 7A with headlights on. Maybe he had different light bulbs.
So this leaves me with the undercharging problem.
|
He probably has a 12 volt system. Double the volts, half the current.
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jessousa
Samba Member
Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 1:48 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| Quote: |
| So check generator brushes, but I think a new generator with regulator is in your future. |
| Quote: |
| how did you determine the brushes are still good. they do need to extend above the brush holder, else they are worn too much |
The brushes seem to be OK because they pass above the holder.
My generator is a though one. The brushes don't fit the lateral window. I'll have to remove the puley to check them accurately and be sure about their performance.
As I wrote before I still haven't checked the generator and the regulator. About the wiring I'm sure it's in a bad shape because I had to remove rust and clean contacts of the rear lights in order for them to work. If the ground connections are like those that should be a problem.
| Quote: |
| but on a car this old, there are likely several electric issues. |
Now I think this the main issue. I guess I'll have to start somewhere and go step by step eliminating faults.
Tomorrow I'll be home and will check all those things and keep you posted.
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KTPhil 
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Posts: 34012
Location: Conejo Valley, CA
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| A malfunctioning light switch could cause excess draw through an internal short. You wont blow fuses because that part of the lighting circuit in un-fused. Sometimes I think the wire-wound resistor for the dash dimmer can break down and becomes a short. That might explain the voltage drop and current draw with the lights on. |
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
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Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 2:22 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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I'm not home now but I have these pictures of the generator and the regulator. You can see the shape of the wiring. Also the regulator is not attached to the genarator as I think it was in the past.
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Cusser
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Location: Hot Arizona
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:28 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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Hmmm - don't 6-volt generators typically have the regulator mounted to their top side? And isn't that generator rotated off-kilter, and strap on incorrectly too? Can you show the wires going to the generator to the regulator?
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1970 VW (owned since 1972) and 1971 VW Convertible (owned since 1976), second owner of each. The '71 now has the 1835 engine, swapped from the '70. Second owner of each. 1988 Mazda B2200 truck, 1998 Frontier, 2014 Yukon, 2004 Frontier King Cab. All manual transmission except for the Yukon. http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335294 http://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/album_page.php?pic_id=335297 |
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 5:45 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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I have 2 photos. One with tags identifying the connections and the other where you can follow the wire from regulator to generator.
One question I asked myself is if the regulator is well grounded fixed like that. The later models have a D- wire from regulator to generator. This model used to stand on the generator and that was the ground.
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EVfun
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:23 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
I read a few posts at the forum about this topic but I still have some doubts.
My beetle is not charging the battery with the headlights on. I still havenīt finished all the possible tests to the charging system but so far I know the following:
-The battery fully charges with an external charger
-The battery charge is around 6.5V with the engine off and goes to around 7.6V with the engine running
-When I turn on the headlights the voltage drops to 6.7- 6.8V
-Cranking the engine the voltage drops to around 5.5V
-When the car is off the battery power consumption is 0 A
-Just turning the key the power comsumption goes to 1.3A
-Turning on the headlights the power comsumption goes to 12A
-With turning lights it goes from 2 to 5A
-Accelarating the engine with headlights on the voltage droped instead of increasing. However I must repeat this test because the voltage value was osclillating a lot and I want to test it with a different multimeter.
I still haven't tested the generator nor the regulator but I think the problem must be elsewhere.
Could it only be a ground problem?
I'm not sure about the normal values of power consumption but I think 1.3A only turning the key, from 2 to 5A with turning lights and 12A for the headlights is too much. |
Do you have a ground strap between the transaxle and the frame? VW put one at the forward end of the transaxle. Are the outer edge of the generator brushes above the edge of the brush holders? Do you see much sparking as you rev the engine with the headlights on?
Can you repeat the running test that showed the dropping voltage with an old school analog volt meter, and do the test at both the regulator and the battery?
The running test seems strange and troubling. The other tests look pretty normal for a 6 volt car, the headlights a little low for draw.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 6:45 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| Quote: |
| Do you have a ground strap between the transaxle and the frame? |
This one of the things I still haven't had the chance to check. I must take the car to an elevator so I can check it.
| Quote: |
| Are the outer edge of the generator brushes above the edge of the brush holders? |
Yes they are.
About the tests, I don't have an old school volt meter but I bought a better digital multimeter and I 'll repeat the tests
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sjbartnik
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| Posted: Wed Oct 18, 2017 7:32 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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That wiring at B+ on the regulator looks really nasty. Definitely clean up and straighten that out (replace wires and connectors as necessary). Check out those splices underneath the electrical tape, I don't like to see crap like that as it's rarely done well.
You can measure resistance between the regulator body and ground to see if it gets a good connection there.
You could always run a ground wire from the regulator mounting screw to the generator case if you had to. I can't tell from the photos if your generator has a D- lug on it; the one on my Type 3 does.
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
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Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 7:43 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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After cleaning all connections on the fuse box, flasher relay, headlight switch, the battery ground cable and regulator I have the following voltage readings:
Idle 6,8V
High rev 7,4V
Headlights on - idle 6,4V (generator light off)
Headlights on - high rev 7,0V (generator light off)
Regulador B+ - idle 6,25V
Regulator B+ - high rev 7,5V
Regulador B+ - lights on idle 6,19V
Regulador B+ - lights on high rev 7,08V
The test to the generator worries me. Disconnected DF and D+; multimeter positive to D+ multimeter negative and df grounded on engine body. The Bentley manual suggests grounding both of them on D-. I can't locate D- on the generator so I tried to ground on generator body without success. The reading I got this way is 1,6V at high rev and 0V at idle. It should rise to 18V according to Bentley manual. I'm not sure about the accuracy of this reading. What do you guys think about this?
Pictures of brushes
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rcf925
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Location: Central Coast, CA
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 8:40 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| A lot of corrosion on brushes and generator in general, I would pull generator and rebuild with new brushes , Check bearings, bushes, and clean, It's not that big of a job. I think thats the problem |
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:03 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| rcf925 wrote: |
| A lot of corrosion on brushes and generator in general, I would pull generator and rebuild with new brushes , Check bearings, bushes, and clean, It's not that big of a job. I think thats the problem |
What do you think about the voltage reading and the way I did it? Is it correct to ground on engine body instead of generator body?
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sjbartnik
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| Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2017 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| Quote: |
Idle 6,8V
High rev 7,4V
Headlights on - idle 6,4V (generator light off)
Headlights on - high rev 7,0V (generator light off)
Regulador B+ - idle 6,25V
Regulator B+ - high rev 7,5V
Regulador B+ - lights on idle 6,19V
Regulador B+ - lights on high rev 7,08V |
These numbers all look pretty normal for a 6v generator system.
I think you have not done your generator test correctly - with the numbers you are seeing above, it's clear the generator is working.
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