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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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 Posted: Sat Nov 11, 2017 6:58 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| Q-Dog wrote: |
Until you verify ALL of the ground connections are sound (especially the transmission ground strap) you are just wasting your time (and ours). This intermittent light thing is exactly the behavior I would expect from a poor ground, and also why I suggested you check ALL grounds in the very first answer to your problem. Perhaps I wasn't clear?
Eliminate the ground strap as the problem before doing anything else. If the ground strap is bad the engine will try to ground through other things, like the clutch and accelerator cables. |
Your instruction was perfectly clear and I said I'll check it. I also thanked you both for your time and help. About wasting your time you have the option of ignoring me what I hope you won't do because I'll always need the help of the more experienced.
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
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Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Nov 22, 2017 8:06 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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I think I can consider this topic closed. Cleaned the ground strap and replaced the fuse box. All I have now is still a random flashing of the generator light pressing the accelerator pedal and a little glow when turning lights are on. I think I'll have to live with it.
I'd like to thank everybody for the advices and time spent with my issues.
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jessousa
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Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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I'm reopening this thread to ask a question:
The regulator died and now I have a new aftermarket regulator and the charging is OK according to the tests I've performed. Battery voltage increases to 7,4V at high RPM, generator outputs 19V at high RPM, regulator outputs 7,4V at high RPM. With the headlights on the voltage drops to around 7,1V. The only problem is the generator light keeping a low brightness and glowing brighter with high RPM. It's worse than it was with the old regulator. The voltage drop issue I had before seems to be worse with the new regulator.
Assuming the battery is being well charged are there any nasty consequences due to the light not going completely off or should I keep driving the car with no worries?
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mukluk
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Joined: October 18, 2012
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Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:11 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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The bulb will illuminate when current passes through it, regardless of which direction that current comes from. To explain that further, normal operation has battery power coming through the ignition switch when you turn it on, passing then to the fuse block and over to the speedometer housing. Power then passes through the gen bulb and on back to where it finds a ground at the voltage regulator since the generator isn't producing any power. When you fire the engine up and the generator starts producing power, the voltage from both the generator and the fuse block pretty well equalize which stops current flow through the bulb -- no more light illuminated. But, if for some reason the voltage isn't roughly equal on both sides of the bulb, you can get a current flow which will then illuminate the bulb. Since the bulb is getting brighter when the generator operates at a higher rpm, then it's safe to say the fuse block side of the circuit is a lower voltage than the wire coming directly from the voltage regulator since the fuse block side has more connections it has to pass through, ie more opportunity for the voltage to drop. Essentially the generator is powering the fuse block through the generator bulb, albeit at a low current (limited by the wattage of the bulb). If you were to disconnect the wire from the fuse block to the speedometer housing with the engine running and measure the voltage with a meter, you would find the voltage to be less than what the generator is putting out.
Long story short, you need to clean up your connections in the power circuit going to the fuse block and speedometer to get rid of your power drop problem.
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
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Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| mukluk wrote: |
The bulb will illuminate when current passes through it, regardless of which direction that current comes from. To explain that further, normal operation has battery power coming through the ignition switch when you turn it on, passing then to the fuse block and over to the speedometer housing. Power then passes through the gen bulb and on back to where it finds a ground at the voltage regulator since the generator isn't producing any power. When you fire the engine up and the generator starts producing power, the voltage from both the generator and the fuse block pretty well equalize which stops current flow through the bulb -- no more light illuminated. But, if for some reason the voltage isn't roughly equal on both sides of the bulb, you can get a current flow which will then illuminate the bulb. Since the bulb is getting brighter when the generator operates at a higher rpm, then it's safe to say the fuse block side of the circuit is a lower voltage than the wire coming directly from the voltage regulator since the fuse block side has more connections it has to pass through, ie more opportunity for the voltage to drop. Essentially the generator is powering the fuse block through the generator bulb, albeit at a low current (limited by the wattage of the bulb). If you were to disconnect the wire from the fuse block to the speedometer housing with the engine running and measure the voltage with a meter, you would find the voltage to be less than what the generator is putting out.
Long story short, you need to clean up your connections in the power circuit going to the fuse block and speedometer to get rid of your power drop problem. |
Thanks for the clear explanation.
I've already done everything you sugested before.
I guess I would have to replace all connectors or even all the wiring to solve the problem.
My concern is about the possible nasty consequences of driving the car without solving this issue first.
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mukluk
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Location: Clyde, TX
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 3:37 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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If you can't solve the excess voltage drop to the speedometer side of the gen bulb, you could try installing a diode or a resister between the gen light and the wire coming from the voltage regulator.
Edit to add:
Sitting back and giving it a bit of a think, there is a slight possibility the wire from the voltage regulator has excessive resistance and not the other way 'round. A quick and easy check to verify the voltage from each source with a meter while the engine is running will help answer where the problem lies.
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herbie1200
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Joined: April 27, 2006
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Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Wed Apr 11, 2018 11:17 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
...Battery voltage increases to 7,4V at high RPM, generator outputs 19V at high RPM, regulator outputs 7,4V at high RPM. With the headlights on the voltage drops to around 7,1V. The only problem is the generator light keeping a low brightness and glowing brighter with high RPM. It's worse than it was with the old regulator. The voltage drop issue I had before seems to be worse with the new regulator.
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Where did you measure 7,1V with headlights on? On the +D? the +B? or elsewhere? If you got 7,1V on the headlight connector this voltage is too much; regulator should act to reduce voltage when heavy load is applied.
About generator light glowing: it's a common issue.
Plus than on connection, a common source of voltage drop is the ignition switch.
A good test is based to observation: current to headlights does not flow through ignition switch. So if glowing is the same with headlights on or off (cruising at a constant speed) you can concentrate your check on the ignition branch of circuit excluding the "fixed +30" branch (lights, radio, etc.). |
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
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Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 2:53 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| Sitting back and giving it a bit of a think, there is a slight possibility the wire from the voltage regulator has excessive resistance and not the other way 'round. A quick and easy check to verify the voltage from each source with a meter while the engine is running will help answer where the problem lies. |
The problem is not there. I already jumped a wire from regulator's terminal 61 to the bulb and the glow persists.
| herbie1200 wrote: |
| Where did you measure 7,1V with headlights on? |
On the battery.
| herbie1200 wrote: |
So if glowing is the same with headlights on or off (cruising at a constant speed) you can concentrate your check on the ignition branch of circuit excluding the "fixed +30" branch (lights, radio, etc.).
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The glow is brighter with headlights on and get more with high RPM
I thank you guys for all your sugestions. This is a job for a long time. We are talking about 56 years old wire loom. I've already cleaned all connections, replaced the fuse box, replaced all fuses, cleaned transaxle ground strap, replaced generator and regulator, new terminals at all generator/regulator connections. I'm sure the problem lies on the advanced age of the wire loom and perhaps also on the switches. It's true that I could replace all of them but I'm avoiding to go that way.
Meanwhile I just would like to know if it's safe to drive in these conditions or if I'm puting in risc my bug's electrical system
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EVfun
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Joined: April 01, 2012
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Location: Seattle
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 4:55 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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A slight glow from the generator light when everything is working is not unusual for these 50+ year old cars, and is harmless. All it means is that the voltage at the regulator terminal 61 is higher than the voltage at the front of your car. On 6v cars it doesn't take much voltage to get a slight red glow from a bulb. Just make sure it is easy to tell that slight glow from the bright glow you see before you start the car. That bright glow is your warning that the fan belt is off so your cooling system isn't working, and you need to shut down the engine immediately.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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herbie1200
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Joined: April 27, 2006
Posts: 833
Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 5:42 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
| herbie1200 wrote: |
| Where did you measure 7,1V with headlights on? |
On the battery.
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This is not correct! Voltage should be no more than 6,6 - 6,7V. Look at the regulator if someone opened it bending some register. There is a sealed screw to evidence manomission.
| herbie1200 wrote: |
So if glowing is the same with headlights on or off (cruising at a constant speed) you can concentrate your check on the ignition branch of circuit excluding the "fixed +30" branch (lights, radio, etc.).
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| jessousa wrote: |
The glow is brighter with headlights on and get more with high RPM
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The not well working regulator may cause it, anyway I resolved this on my 63 with a good 6mm cable from +battery (under rear seat) to the +30 term on the light switch.
The original +30 white/red cable moved the fuse box.
In this way lights are fed directly by battery and, (the idea!) you use BOTH wires coming out from regulator, the original one feeds engine, wiper, etc., while the one to the battery, via the new added wire, feeds ONLY the lights + battery. Load is shared between two cables avoiding excessive voltage drop.
Beware of voltage drops! If they are distributed along a circuit OK; but if you have 1V into a point where 30 Ampere flow, there is a dissipation of 30Watt that is the power of a small soldering iron, this can damage circuits. |
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jessousa
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Joined: October 13, 2017
Posts: 64
Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 6:40 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| EVfun wrote: |
| A slight glow from the generator light when everything is working is not unusual for these 50+ year old cars, and is harmless. All it means is that the voltage at the regulator terminal 61 is higher than the voltage at the front of your car. On 6v cars it doesn't take much voltage to get a slight red glow from a bulb. Just make sure it is easy to tell that slight glow from the bright glow you see before you start the car. That bright glow is your warning that the fan belt is off so your cooling system isn't working, and you need to shut down the engine immediately. |
The glow is much weaker than the one before starting the engine.
| herbie1200 wrote: |
This is not correct! Voltage should be no more than 6,6 - 6,7V. Look at the regulator if someone opened it bending some register. There is a sealed screw to evidence manomission.
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I will look into this again. Maybe the reading wasn't accurate. The regulator is brand new but is electronic. the old one was Bosch but the points were burned and it wasn't charging the battery.
| herbie1200 wrote: |
The not well working regulator may cause it, anyway I resolved this on my 63 with a good 6mm cable from +battery (under rear seat) to the +30 term on the light switch.
The original +30 white/red cable moved the fuse box.
In this way lights are fed directly by battery and, (the idea!) you use BOTH wires coming out from regulator, the original one feeds engine, wiper, etc., while the one to the battery, via the new added wire, feeds ONLY the lights + battery. Load is shared between two cables avoiding excessive voltage drop.
Beware of voltage drops! If they are distributed along a circuit OK; but if you have 1V into a point where 30 Ampere flow, there is a dissipation of 30Watt that is the power of a small soldering iron, this can damage circuits.
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This is a really interesting idea.
I had already decided to jump a wire through the circuit to pinpoint the bad connection or switch (tried with voltmeter but did not get any useful conclusion) but this could be a nice solution.
Thank you all for your ideas and instructions.
All I want is to keep driving the bug!!
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EVfun
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 8:16 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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Ideally the charging system doesn't exceed 7.2 volts, but up to 7.4 would not concern me. The charging system may drop out at idle, but at least 6.6 volts is required to charge the battery close to full, 6.8 volts would be better.
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| Wildthings wrote: |
| As a general rule, cheap parts are the most expensive parts you can buy. |
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herbie1200
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Location: Rome - Italy
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| Posted: Thu Apr 12, 2018 11:04 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
| herbie1200 wrote: |
This is not correct! Voltage should be no more than 6,6 - 6,7V. Look at the regulator if someone opened it bending some register. There is a sealed screw to evidence manomission.
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I will look into this again. Maybe the reading wasn't accurate. The regulator is brand new but is electronic. the old one was Bosch but the points were burned and it wasn't charging the battery.
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With electronic regulator the voltage you measured (7,2V with headlights on) is correct because they have a smart protection that limit voltage ONLY when current exceedes a specific values.
Electro-mechanic regulator instead, if the one with only 2 coils, varies voltage with load, to make sure to not overload generator. So voltage is never constant, the 7,2 volt you got under load alerted me because I was thinking you had an electromechanical regulator.
A bit of more info: also electromechanical regulator can provide a constant voltage regulation BUT they have to use 3 coils so are not used in cheap cars.
Porsche 356s often have 3-coils regulators, Bosch itself made the same regulator in 2-coils or 3-coils implementation.
Do you have photo/detail of new solidstate regulator? |
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jessousa
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Location: Coimbra-Portugal
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| Posted: Fri Apr 13, 2018 2:16 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| herbie1200 wrote: |
With electronic regulator the voltage you measured (7,2V with headlights on) is correct because they have a smart protection that limit voltage ONLY when current exceedes a specific values.
Electro-mechanic regulator instead, if the one with only 2 coils, varies voltage with load, to make sure to not overload generator. So voltage is never constant, the 7,2 volt you got under load alerted me because I was thinking you had an electromechanical regulator.
A bit of more info: also electromechanical regulator can provide a constant voltage regulation BUT they have to use 3 coils so are not used in cheap cars.
Porsche 356s often have 3-coils regulators, Bosch itself made the same regulator in 2-coils or 3-coils implementation.
Do you have photo/detail of new solidstate regulator? |
Thanks for the info.
I don't have any detail sheet of the regulator. However I got a few photos of the regulator from an online store.
If I come to any solution for the glow I'll post it
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Eric&Barb
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jessousa
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:15 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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The terminals are stock style but my crimping tool doesn't look like that one.
Today I replaced terminals (soldered them to the wire) of the wires from headlight switch 30 to fuse box and ignition switch 30 tto fuse box. Got a little improvement decreasing a bit the generator light glow. Also jumped a wire from battery positive to headlight switch 30 but didn't get any aditional improvement. I guess I'll have to replace the switch in the near future.
As I said before it's gonna be a long job. Now I can to drive the bug and that was my biggest concern.
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Eric&Barb
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 12:49 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| jessousa wrote: |
The terminals are stock style but my crimping tool doesn't look like that one. |
Post an image of the tool you are using please.
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mukluk
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| Posted: Sat Apr 14, 2018 1:26 pm Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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About five minutes spent under the hood with a voltmeter to verify where the voltage drops are would go a long way toward fixing the problem instead of guessing and randomly soldering/replacing things.
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jessousa
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| Posted: Sun Apr 15, 2018 5:08 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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| mukluk wrote: |
| About five minutes spent under the hood with a voltmeter to verify where the voltage drops are would go a long way toward fixing the problem instead of guessing and randomly soldering/replacing things. |
Did that already and didn't get any useful conclusion.
The cable I refered wasn't chosen randomly. The connections were in bad shape.
I'm not in a hurry so I'll keep doing this task when I have free time.
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tommiebsmith
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| Posted: Tue Aug 07, 2018 9:41 am Post subject: Re: Beetle 1962 charging or power consumption issue? |
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I'm reading the 6v charging stuff here..
not sure this is related.. and I need to do all the "checks" and stuff mentioned here..
I have what seems to be a failing coil after long(ish) runs.. I can see the dash light dimly come on.. and then the car starts to cut out.. as if no spark..
they seem to coincide .. as in maybe I have peaking voltage? Amps? that are causing stress on the coil/condeser? forcing stop of output spark??
I am here to read and learn.. so anything above may be way off track  
I would just like to put a better than 20 mile trip on the car..
Note: this is a newish development .. where as before prior to doing basically anything I could drive for ever.. then it started doing this..
I replaced coil and did a dist. tuneup.. didn't change the new found issue
Thanks for any thoughts on this possibly related matter? |
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