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Buggy darts while driving
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

goodsofar wrote:
I just recently got a Manx style buggy and you guys are scaring the begeezus out of me talking about going over 100mph! 65 is the maximum I'm comfortable at in mine, with white knuckles.



Who went over 100MPH.... I stated 90MPH, it was on freeway and I had to get away from dipS&^# in tuner car that he thought was "hot" and he kept bugging me.... Besides I never got it out of 3rd gear...

Dale
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goodsofar
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:39 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

slalombuggy mentioned letting go of the wheel at 121mph..........maybe in my younger days.....but I know I'm not invincible now.
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MrGoodtunes
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

Dale M. wrote:
... IF front of pan is lower than rear ... it pulls the top pivot of trailing arm forward and changes caster angle ... reducing caster ...


The depth of knowledge that some on this forum clearly possess is out done only by their willingness to share it in a way that even I can understand. Huge thanks, Dale M. Now I know why my buggy began to seem in need of a little help getting the steering wheel to return straight up center after a turn, back when I went to 15" rear and 13" front Jack-star wheels.

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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:55 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

goodsofar wrote:
slalombuggy mentioned letting go of the wheel at 121mph..........maybe in my younger days.....but I know I'm not invincible now.


Closed race course, nothing I could hit for 30 miles. I wasn't advocating driving that fast on the street, just demonstrating that a well set up buggy can travel at very high speeds..

Yes caster shims raise up the front end very slightly but with adjusters you can compensate for the slight increase. You can never have to much caster (well, to a point) Higher caster angles will increase stability, the more caster, the more stable. The trade off is higher steering effort. But I had 165/45s on the front of my orange buggy with 8* of caster and a 12" steering wheel and found it quite easy to drive. My new LSR Buggy will have over 15* of caster on skinny front runners and it's a cow to turn without any weight in the car yet.

brad
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slalombuggy
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 8:57 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

MrGoodtunes wrote:
Dale M. wrote:
... IF front of pan is lower than rear ... it pulls the top pivot of trailing arm forward and changes caster angle ... reducing caster ...


The depth of knowledge that some on this forum clearly possess is out done only by their willingness to share it in a way that even I can understand. Huge thanks, Dale M. Now I know why my buggy began to seem in need of a little help getting the steering wheel to return straight up center after a turn, back when I went to 15" rear and 13" front Jack-star wheels.

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Honey, I Shrunk The Camaro Wink Very Happy Very Happy
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cudabear
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:19 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

We are going to solve this problem 1 step at a time so we know what fixed it. Too a previous post the frt and rear alignment was professionlly done by self. I have been doing alignments for the past 40yrs. I teach my new hires how to read measurment and take the colors off the align machine, no toe and go here. My 1st change will be reinstalling the rear radial tires i put on in place of the M&H race master Cheater Slicks. One thing i did notice when i took a friend for a WOT ride the other day it handles better with an extra 200 lbs in the buggy. On another note with the cheater drag tires in the 1/8 mile it handles good and went somewhere around 100 plus or minus.
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cudabear
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 11:27 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

ok so i just went on M&H tire site the tires i have are bias construction. Radials Front and Bias rear dont work well together. Will report back in a few days when i get the buggy to my shop and change back to radials on the rear.
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BIGMIKEY
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 23, 2017 1:32 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

Looking forward to the solution. Really like that you are taking a step by step approach.


I will be watching this thread for developments.

Popcorn
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oprn
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 4:35 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:
Yes the rake angle is the reason for the shims, so if your front sits higher you may need them on the top beam.

Thanks!

That's what I suspected but I wasn't sure if the castor angle changed as the suspension went up through it's travel as well. It would not surprise me if it did. As someone else said these trailing arm front suspensions are far from ideal in terms of handling and there is a lot going on. They are simple to fix and very durable and their only saving grace as far as handling goes is they are sprung stiff from the factory.
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GS guy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:26 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

I didn't see any details on the rear suspension set-up? Swingaxle or IRS? Too little toe on either could definitely make the car twitchy! What about condition of the rear suspension bushings - old and worn will allow settings to change while driving. If it's a SA, I can imagine the squared-off bias-ply tire profile could create some handling issues in anything but a straight line.
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:06 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

YDBD wrote:
Yes the rake angle is the reason for the shims, so if your front sits higher you may need them on the top beam.

As Dale M. stated there's a lot going on with a buggy. Stock settings and numbers are good to have and start with but it will take trial and error to get it safe and drive-able.


Disagree here if front sits high, it only increases caster angle and improve "centering"as you release wheel and it wants to naturally return to center....

Dale
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cudabear
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 5:02 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

Its has a swingaxle with sway a way spring plates, Jayce S/P retainers all new bushings. Alignment specs have 1/2 degree positive camber and 1/16th Toe each side. Changing out rear tires tomorrow.
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oprn
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:09 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

Toe in or toe out, big difference! It should be toe out.
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Bluggy
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 6:12 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Toe in or toe out, big difference! It should be toe out.


Correct..toe in will cause wandering and toe out prevents it..too much toe out will cause the tires to scrub which you will hear distinctly at higher speeds and when cornering.
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 24, 2017 8:29 pm    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

oprn wrote:
Toe in or toe out, big difference! It should be toe out.


Hope you are referring to rear when stating toe out......I run mine at "0" (zero) toe on rear....

Dale..
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Last edited by Dale M. on Wed Oct 25, 2017 6:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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oprn
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:20 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

Dale M. wrote:
oipe you are refering to rear when stating toe out...
Dale..

That is correct, the OP was referring to a swing axle... The closest thing to a swing axle on the front of a vehicle that I know of is the Ford pickup Twin I beam.
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cudabear
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:09 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

The rear is towed in at 1/16 on both sides AS IT SHOULD BE. oprn you need to read John Connelys @ aircooled.net article on drag race suspension set up. If you toe out on rear it would be the same effect of toeing out on the Front and making it want to wonder side to side.. Got tires changed out this morning and wiil drive it during lunch time and report back.
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YDBD
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:15 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

Popcorn

Did RC cars for a few years...all of them have rear toe in as a standard setup...has me interested in what the correct set up is a bug chassis
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Dale M.
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:38 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

I was always told, thought, believed rear should have from 0 (zero) to 1/16 inch tow-in... Never tow out...

BUT..... This article seems to contradict the notion I have...

http://www.vw-resource.com/rear_suspension.html

Dale
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Bluggy
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 25, 2017 8:50 am    Post subject: Re: Buggy darts while driving Reply with quote

Dale M. wrote:
I was always told, thought, believed rear should have from 0 (zero) to 1/16 inch tow-in... Never tow out...

BUT..... This article seems to contradict the notion I have...

http://www.vw-resource.com/rear_suspension.html

Dale


And this article skewed my beliefs and experiences too Very Happy it gives some great insight to the topic.

http://www.formula1-dictionary.net/toe.html

.
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